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OT: Reports Cite No Abuse of Schiavo

Question:

Reports Cite No Abuse of Schiavo By Maya Bell Orlando Sentinel ORLANDO

It's Official: Kerry WINS Next Election – Why doesn't he try to win this one.

Question:

>WOW!!! With tonight’s performance, John Kerry guaranteed he will be >elected the next President of the United States!!!

Uh, what debate were you watching or what were you smoking? Kerry’s the Great Pretender. And on Nov. 3, he’ll be the Great Loser, as if he isn’t already…. Jimoran

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>Kerry is still lying. Do you really think that young voters are going >>to vote for him? > Considering that EVERY SINGLE POLL has young voters supporting him in > big numbers, I would say yes. > My son said most of the students on his university campus are supporting > Kerry big time. BTW, they all use cell phones so they aren’t generally > polled.

Yeah! But how many of them will actually vote. You know that if you are young and if you actually have a conscience you’ll know that Kerry has been lying. He’s quite practiced, he should be good at it, he’s a lawyer. So do you have a conscience, do you vote for the lier or the other person you think is a lier. Better not to vote than to make the wrong vote. If you are young and have been raised with no values, yes! you may vote for Kerry. Listen to the lies. 1. The Republicans will take away your social security. Reserved and oft repeated to old people. It is not only a lie, it is a mean lie. No one, is ever going to take away anybodies social security. What and lose the old people vote. Its not even a good lie. This was one of Wellstones favorites, I heard him tell this lie more than once to old people at retirement homes, etc. Mean, Mean, Mean. 2. The Republican are trying to take away the African Americans vote. It is not only a lie, it is a mean lie. (Why! do Democrats like mean lies so much.) The Republicans only have to be patient and we will have the African American vote. Check the facts and recent voting trends. On second thought maybe that is why Democrats lie so transparently. Desperation. 3. The Republican are going to reinstate the draft. It is not only a lie, it is a mean lie. (Why! Do I have to repeat this. Why! do Democrats like mean lies so much.) Trying to scare high school and college students. The Democrats had offered the bill to re-introduce the draft – not the Republicans. We are currently recruiting at a rate above goal. I could go on and make this a top 10, or top 100 for than matter but if you have no INTEGRITY it won’t matter. Folks I love politics, I have since I was twelve way back in 1962. I have a long and very detailed memory. I remember very clearly what Kerry says from one speach to another. He often says something on Tuesday that is clearly opposite to what he has said on Monday. Thanks,

Response:

> wrote or quoted : > Unless Bush has Osama Bin Laden hiding in his closet ready to bring > him out on Nov. 1, he has lost this election. > I think we must be prepared for that. When he does, we must in unified chorus > point to his quotation about not giving a rats ass if he caught bin Laden, and > say "It’s about fucking time. You didn’t get off your ass until election > time. Why did you dick around so long with Iraq you dildo brain?"

Roedy, that’s a libel against dildos. Will you retract? > [. . .]

– Quentin Burward

Response:

"> Remember the Peter Piper exhibition, proving he could call out a long > list of numbers without a bobble? > He had no idea what they meant. They were just syllables.

Yes, yes, a thousand times yes. I have been saying this since 2000. Chimpo Bush just babbles dissonant information, somewhat vaguely related to the topic and then switches back into defender of all that is ‘right wing’ mode, using moronic campaign mottos and pathetic sloganeering. He cannot even handle the softest of softballs. What a stupid wimp.

Response:

> > >Unless Bush has Osama Bin Laden hiding in his closet ready to bring > >him out on Nov. 1, he has lost this election. > First, Osama isn’t hinding in his closet, he is living in his texas ranch. > Second, Karl Rove will have done extensive research on the exact date of the > announcement to make maximum impact on electors without appearing to have been > a staged event. [snip]

To be honest, I wouldn’t give these people the credit of believing they’d *be able* to carry out such a thing. Surely if they were entirely bothered about re-election hopes they’d have made less of an outright mess of the Iraq situation, and also not have let Bush so appallingly fail in the three debates. T x

Response:

> CONGRATULATIONS JOHN KERRY – YOU ARE THE NEXT PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED > STATES!!!

… and then you woke up. Bush will win. — steven x brown "I put every damn pipe in this neighborhood. People think that pipes grow on trees. But they sure as hell don’t! Look at my knees! Look at my knees!"

Response:

wrote or quoted : >trying to talk fast so he would sound like he >knew what he was talking about, pounding the podium the whole time.

Remember the Peter Piper exhibition, proving he could call out a long list of numbers without a bobble? He had no idea what they meant. They were just syllables. Bush is not on your side! — Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. Coaching, problem solving, economical contract programming. See http://mindprod.com/jgloss/jgloss.html for The Java Glossary.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >Kerry is still lying. Do you really think that young voters are going to > >vote for him? > which particular lie did you find most egregious? > We’ll never know because he’d have to get elected in order for us to find > out which campaign promises were lies. > Matt

Doesn’t change the fact that Bus’s lies are worse than Kerry’s…. I definitely prefer the lesser of the two evils…

Response:

>Kerry is still lying. Do you really think that young voters are going to >vote for him? > which particular lie did you find most egregious?

We’ll never know because he’d have to get elected in order for us to find out which campaign promises were lies. Matt

Response:

Most young "voters" never make it to the polls, Thank God.

Response:

> >Unless Bush has Osama Bin Laden hiding in his closet ready to bring >him out on Nov. 1, he has lost this election.

First, Osama isn’t hinding in his closet, he is living in his texas ranch. Second, Karl Rove will have done extensive research on the exact date of the announcement to make maximum impact on electors without appearing to have been a staged event. I’d say he will be found at least one week prior to the election. Enough to give Bush time to brag about it. But not enough for the story to be replaced by something else. The big question is whether there will be any neutral verification that this is in fact Osama, and not some hollywood stunt actor. Remember that the CIA cannot be trusted since it is no a neutral party and has proven to be able to generate any story needed by its bosses (Cheney,Rumsfeld,Wolfowitz). In fact, I wouldn’t be surprised in Bin laden had been killed early in the Afghanistan invasion, but the Bush Regime decided it was in its best interest to have Bin laden continue to live and release tapes now and then to keep the american population in its state of fear of terrorism which allowed the bush regime to pass its agenda through congress/senate without any resistance. As a result, the CIA generated those tapes with whatever snippets of voice they already had from Bin laden. The Bush regime has proven it cannot be trusted to tell the truth. Unfortunatly, most americans will blindly believe the accomplishement when Bush announces that they’ve caught him. What I can’t wait though is for Hussein to call upon Rumsfeld/Cheney/Wolfowitz as witnesses during his trials when he tells his court that the bio weapons had been sold to Iraq by the americans who wanted Iraq to use them against Iran. (there is tape of Rumsfeld shaking hands with hussein at the conclusion of the arms sales – such tape may have been censored by the USA media, but it has been shown outside the USA). It is a real shame that hussein’s trial was magically delayed until after the US election.

Response:

wrote or quoted : > He had nothing to stand >on so tried to be a comedian.

This was not the time to joke. What happened to my money? Money is not funny. Money is more serious than God in the USA. Bush did not even attempt to defend himself. Bush is not on your side! — Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. Coaching, problem solving, economical contract programming. See http://mindprod.com/jgloss/jgloss.html for The Java Glossary.

Response:

> Unless Bush has Osama Bin Laden hiding in his closet ready to bring > him out on Nov. 1, he has lost this election. > CONGRATULATIONS JOHN KERRY – YOU ARE THE NEXT PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED > STATES!!!

I’m not looking to go quite that far but, it sure is looking up!

Response:

wrote or quoted : >Unless Bush has Osama Bin Laden hiding in his closet ready to bring >him out on Nov. 1, he has lost this election.

I think we must be prepared for that. When he does, we must in unified chorus point to his quotation about not giving a rats ass if he caught bin Laden, and say "It’s about fucking time. You didn’t get off your ass until election time. Why did you dick around so long with Iraq you dildo brain?" and words to that effect. "I don’t know where he is. I have no idea and I really don’t care. It’s not that important. It’s not our priority." ~ George W. Bush 2002-03-13 Bush is not on your side! — Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. Coaching, problem solving, economical contract programming. See http://mindprod.com/jgloss/jgloss.html for The Java Glossary.

Response:

> CONGRATULATIONS JOHN KERRY – YOU ARE THE NEXT PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED > STATES!!!

Will Kerry give the Palestinians a country? Will Kerry sign up to the kyoto treaty? A presidential vote. http://www.sky.com/skynews/uknews

Response:

> Kerry is still lying. Do you really think that young voters are going to > vote for him?

If you read nothing else, read this month’s Vanity Fair article about the 2000 South Carolina primary and get back to me about *Kerry* having the lying problem.

Response:

>Kerry is still lying. Do you really think that young voters are going to >vote for him?

which particular lie did you find most egregious? Bush is not on your side! — Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. Coaching, problem solving, economical contract programming. See http://mindprod.com/jgloss/jgloss.html for The Java Glossary.

Response:

"Laura Bush should divorce that moron and hook up with Cheney’s daughter." LOL!!!!! Kerry is far superior to the chimp, and I don’t mean Baba Booey.

Response:

> > WOW!!! With tonight’s performance, John Kerry guaranteed he will be > elected the next President of the United States!!! > God help us all. > Buy a prayer-mat and get converted immediately afterwards – as the Age of > Islam begins.

Actually, I heard from an unassailable source that he’ll have the pope living with him at the White House. .

Response:

typed: >WOW!!! With tonight’s performance, John Kerry guaranteed he will be >elected the next President of the United States!!! >Kerry: 3 >Bush: 0

below you can find where to win your money by putting it where you keep your mouth… it were a good larf…. after the ‘event’ they had a whole stream of ‘voters’ phone in with comments…. first they asked which party they supported… then they asked who won the debate… guess what…..100% result….in both directions….and by an ‘overwhelming margin’ for me the funniest part of the ‘debate was when kerry tried to quote two ‘news’ tv chains as support…. and bush curled up and suggested he might look for better sources! JUST GOT THIS DEMOCRATIC EMAIL, URGING: So, help spin for John Kerry . . . Vote in Online Polls! National and local news organizations will be conducting online polls during and after the debate asking for readers’ opinions. Look for online polls at these news websites, and make sure to vote in every one of them: * CBS: http://www.cbsnews.com/ * CNN: http://www.cnn.com/ * MSNBC: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/ * Wall Street Journal: http://www.wsj.com/ * Akron Beacon-Journal: http://www.ohio.com/ * Atlanta Journal-Constitution: http://www.ajc.com/ * Los Angeles Times: http://www.latimes.com/ * Minneapolis-St. Paul Star-Tribune: http://www.startribune.com/ * Orlando Sentinel: http://www.orlandosentinel.com/ * Philadelphia Inquirer: http://www.philly.com/ * South Florida Sun-Sentinel: http://www.sun-sentinel.com/ * Tennessean: www.tennessean.com * Knoxville News-Sentinel: www.knoxnews.com * Commercial Appeal: www.commercialappeal.com posted at 07:16 PM by Glenn Reynolds http://instapundit.com/ the media ‘pundits’ are known to support the demos approaching 90% if you fill your head with their bullshit it is hardly surprising you cannot think clearly… this gives you some idea where people are currently putting their money in the usa… http://128.255.244.60/graphs/graph_Pres04_WTA.cfm http://www.tradesports.com/jsp/intrade/common/c_cd.jsp?conDetailID=11738 you may like to know it has been more accurate in previous pres elections that the ‘polls’…. the media is not the electorate….. this election will be very close imv….that has been the view from the start of many who are not selling their intelligence to the party machines…. if anything the belief that bush will win has the edge…. here is another method that concentrates on the *real* votes… ie the electoral college…. http://www.electoral-vote.com/ it is being regularly updated and puts kerry 228 bush 284 atm…. as for the debates….i’ve watched them all right the way through… what is also interesting is the sub comments of the groupies who parade and ring in… the bushites regularly mention not trusting kerry…and they often put it more strongly than that! the kerryites often mention bush ‘not answering the questions’…. in both cases i think they have a point…. but this is a show for the sheep…the ones who will vote the way they intended 20 years ago….. it will probably hardly effect the results at all…. and that has been the long term belief tendency of these ‘debates’ in the good old us of a….. kerry has made some pretty outlandish remarks verging on ‘gaffs’ which just might sway a proportion of swing voters… his ‘global test’ has been by far the worst(he aggravated it further as time went on!) and the cartoonists and bush shills are making hay with it….. — web site at www.abelard.org – news and comment service, logic, energy, education, politics, etc >900,000 document calls yearly all that is necessary for [] walk quietly and carry the triumph of evil is that [] a big stick. good people do nothing [] trust actions not words only when it’s funny — roger rabbit

Response:

Kerry is still lying. Do you really think that young voters are going to vote for him?

Response:

>Kerry is still lying. Do you really think that young voters are going to >vote for him? > Considering that EVERY SINGLE POLL has young voters supporting him in big > numbers, I would say yes.

My son said most of the students on his university campus are supporting Kerry big time. BTW, they all use cell phones so they aren’t generally polled. — "The President didn’t find weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, so he’s turned his campaign into a weapon of mass deception." Sen. John Kerry All that is needed for evil to triumph is for good people to stand by and do nothing.

Response:

> It’s incredible that Bush managed to lose ALL THREE DEBATES even after > being fed the answers by Cheney and Rove through that wired box on his > back.

Revealed: the truth about the wired box: http://www.guardian.co.uk/cartoons/stevebell/0,7371,1325238,00.html — Simon Elliott http://www.ctsn.co.uk

Response:

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Steyn adds another "S"

Question:

I woulda said "shit-head," but I don’t hafta worry about getin’ fired… Kerry: strange, stuck-up… and stupid By Mark Steyn (Filed: 24/08/2004) According to Francis Harris in Saturday’s Telegraph, allegations that John Kerry "lied about his Vietnam record" are "unravelling". Oh, I wouldn’t say that. Right now, it looks like the sanity of the Kerry campaign and its pals in the media that’s beginning to unravel. Switch on the TV these days and you’ll see John O’Neill, principal spokesman for the hundreds of Swift boat veterans who oppose their old comrade Kerry, talking calmly and patiently about the facts, citing chapter and verse and relevant footnotes, while some deranged interviewer is going berserk. The other day it was CNN host James Carville, former skinhead-in-chief to Bill Clinton, yelling and howling all over O’Neill’s answers before brushing him aside with, "I’ve got no use for this man." Meanwhile, the grandees at the New York Times, having studiously ignored the story for two weeks, decided that, with the Kerry campaign all but paralysed by the issue, they’d have to sully their lily-white hands with the ghastly business and kill it themselves. Maureen Dowd, the paper’s elderly schoolgirl columnist, dismissed the dissenting Swiftees as "creepy-crawly", "stomach-turning", "sleazoids". Pat Oliphant, who appears in the Washington Post and many other newspapers, offered a cartoon showing the Swiftees as Bush-backing deadbeats sitting round a bar bitching: "I never seen Kerry do nothing hee-roic," says one loser. "Damn right," says another. "You and me was right there in latrine maintenance. We orta know." The redneck spelling’s a nice touch, ain’t it? I wonder which of the anti-Kerry campaign’s 254 Swift vets, including 17 of Lieutenant Kerry’s 23 fellow officers, Oliphant thinks were in latrine maintenance. Maybe he’s got in mind fellows like Paul Galanti, who appears in the latest anti-Kerry ad and whose plane went down over North Vietnam in 1966. He was held in the "Hanoi Hilton" Viet Cong POW camp until 1973. That’s seven years getting tortured by the gooks, only to be mocked by some lame-o cartoonist as a redneck latrine operator. I’ve never quite understood the preferred formulation of big-time Democrats – that "of course" they support our troops even though they oppose this war. But in practice they "support our troop" – singular – just Lieut Kerry and the handful of Swiftees willing to appear in public with him. The rest can go to hell and any of ‘em impertinent enough to question the Senator are just "sleazoids" wading through their own backed-up latrine. I wonder if the Kerry campaign and its media cheerleaders have really thought this one through. Nothing the "sleazoids" say about Kerry is as bad as what he said about them 33 years ago in his testimony to Congress, when he informed the world that his comrades – his "band of brothers" – had "personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads" etc, throughout their time in Vietnam. Unlike John O’Neill’s book, he didn’t bother to give specifics: the US Army in general was rife with ear-severers. If you want to know why Paul Galanti is appearing in an anti-Kerry ad, it’s because he first heard about this speech from his Viet Cong captors who cited it to try to persuade him and his fellow prisoners that resistance was now futile and they might as well cross over to the other side. I said a couple of weeks back that John Kerry was too strange to be President, and a week or two earlier that he was too stuck-up to be President. Since I’m on an alliterative roll, let me add that he’s too stupid to be President. What sort of idiot would make the centrepiece of his presidential campaign four months of proud service in a war he’s best known for opposing? I wouldn’t stand for Parliament on a family values platform because I know someone’s bound to bring up the 123 gay porn movies I had a bit part in back in Amsterdam in the 1970s. How cocooned from reality do you have to be to think you can transform one of the most divisive periods in American history – in which you were largely responsible for much of the divisiveness – into a sappy, happy-clappy, soft-focus patriotic blur without anybody objecting? Most Vietnam veterans of my acquaintance loathe John Kerry, and, if he wasn’t aware of that, he’s too out of it to be President. That can happen to rich guys, particularly touchy, thin-skinned rich guys who prefer to surround themselves with yes-men. Kerry was apparently infuriated by the cool reception he got from a veterans’ audience last week. But why would he expect anything different? And even if he’d never slimed his comrades, there’s something ridiculous about a fellow with four months in Vietnam running as Ike, the Duke of Wellington and Alexander the Great rolled into one. On Sunday, after calling on the Senator to apologise to the 2.5 million veterans he slandered, Bob Dole couldn’t resist chipping in his own view of Kerry’s wounds. "Here’s, you know, a good guy, a good friend. I respect his record. But three Purple Hearts and never bled that I know of," he said. "I mean, they’re all superficial wounds." Dole’s right arm is withered and useless from wounds received in World War Two, and he never made a big hoo-ha about it in the ‘96 campaign. But, more significantly, Dole prizes bipartisan Senatorial chumminess over almost everything, and my guess is he wouldn’t be slamming Kerry if he weren’t so revolted by the unseemly showboating of this campaign. If Vietnam vets loathe him, World War Two vets seem to think he’s a buffoon. Short of reversing over the last 128-year-old Spanish-American War veteran in the retirement home parking lot, it’s hard to see how Kerry could more comprehensively diminish his military support. Still, he’s doing his best. After going around huffing and a-puffing that, if Bush wanted a debate about Vietnam, "Here is my answer: BRING. IT. ON," he’s now gone to ground and is demanding Bush call it off. Meanwhile, his lawyers are threatening suits and the campaign’s complained to the Federal Election Commission to get the Swift vets taken off air. His hagiographer Douglas Brinkley, after an intriguing interview with the Telegraph’s David Rennie, seems to have entered the witness protection programme. If this campaign were any more inept, Michael Moore would be making a documentary claiming Kerry’s a Republican plant secretly controlled by Karl Rove and the House of Saud.

Response:

>I woulda said "shit-head," but I don’t hafta worry about getin’ fired… >Kerry: strange, stuck-up… and stupid

–snip– Even compared to Dubya? No way. The Repair Guy http://repairguy1993.netfirms.com/

Response:

What’ this doing here? Try alt.parents.spanking.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I woulda said "shit-head," but I don’t hafta worry about getin’ fired… > Kerry: strange, stuck-up… and stupid > By Mark Steyn > (Filed: 24/08/2004) > According to Francis Harris in Saturday’s Telegraph, > allegations that John Kerry "lied about his Vietnam > record" are "unravelling". Oh, I wouldn’t say that. > Right now, it looks like the sanity of the Kerry > campaign and its pals in the media that’s beginning > to unravel. > Switch on the TV these days and you’ll see John O’Neill, > principal spokesman for the hundreds of Swift boat veterans > who oppose their old comrade Kerry, talking calmly and > patiently about the facts, citing chapter and verse and > relevant footnotes, while some deranged interviewer is > going berserk. > The other day it was CNN host James Carville, former > skinhead-in-chief to Bill Clinton, yelling and howling > all over O’Neill’s answers before brushing him aside > with, "I’ve got no use for this man." > Meanwhile, the grandees at the New York Times, having > studiously ignored the story for two weeks, decided that, > with the Kerry campaign all but paralysed by the issue, > they’d have to sully their lily-white hands with the > ghastly business and kill it themselves. Maureen Dowd, > the paper’s elderly schoolgirl columnist, dismissed the > dissenting Swiftees as "creepy-crawly", "stomach-turning", > "sleazoids". > Pat Oliphant, who appears in the Washington Post and > many other newspapers, offered a cartoon showing the > Swiftees as Bush-backing deadbeats sitting round a > bar bitching: "I never seen Kerry do nothing hee-roic," > says one loser. "Damn right," says another. "You and me > was right there in latrine maintenance. We orta know." > The redneck spelling’s a nice touch, ain’t it? I wonder > which of the anti-Kerry campaign’s 254 Swift vets, > including 17 of Lieutenant Kerry’s 23 fellow officers, > Oliphant thinks were in latrine maintenance. Maybe he’s > got in mind fellows like Paul Galanti, who appears in > the latest anti-Kerry ad and whose plane went down over > North Vietnam in 1966. He was held in the "Hanoi Hilton" > Viet Cong POW camp until 1973. That’s seven years getting > tortured by the gooks, only to be mocked by some lame-o > cartoonist as a redneck latrine operator. > I’ve never quite understood the preferred formulation of > big-time Democrats – that "of course" they support our > troops even though they oppose this war. But in practice > they "support our troop" – singular – just Lieut Kerry > and the handful of Swiftees willing to appear in public > with him. The rest can go to hell and any of ‘em > impertinent enough to question the Senator are just > "sleazoids" wading through their own backed-up latrine. > I wonder if the Kerry campaign and its media cheerleaders > have really thought this one through. > Nothing the "sleazoids" say about Kerry is as bad as what > he said about them 33 years ago in his testimony to Congress, > when he informed the world that his comrades – his "band of > brothers" – had "personally raped, cut off ears, cut off > heads" etc, throughout their time in Vietnam. > Unlike John O’Neill’s book, he didn’t bother to give > specifics: the US Army in general was rife with ear-severers. > If you want to know why Paul Galanti is appearing in an > anti-Kerry ad, it’s because he first heard about this > speech from his Viet Cong captors who cited it to try to > persuade him and his fellow prisoners that resistance was > now futile and they might as well cross over to the other > side. > I said a couple of weeks back that John Kerry was too > strange to be President, and a week or two earlier that > he was too stuck-up to be President. Since I’m on an > alliterative roll, let me add that he’s too stupid to > be President. What sort of idiot would make the centrepiece > of his presidential campaign four months of proud service > in a war he’s best known for opposing? > I wouldn’t stand for Parliament on a family values platform > because I know someone’s bound to bring up the 123 gay porn > movies I had a bit part in back in Amsterdam in the 1970s. > How cocooned from reality do you have to be to think you > can transform one of the most divisive periods in American > history – in which you were largely responsible for much > of the divisiveness – into a sappy, happy-clappy, soft-focus > patriotic blur without anybody objecting? Most Vietnam > veterans of my acquaintance loathe John Kerry, and, if he > wasn’t aware of that, he’s too out of it to be President. > That can happen to rich guys, particularly touchy, > thin-skinned rich guys who prefer to surround themselves > with yes-men. Kerry was apparently infuriated by the cool > reception he got from a veterans’ audience last week. But > why would he expect anything different? > And even if he’d never slimed his comrades, there’s > something ridiculous about a fellow with four months > in Vietnam running as Ike, the Duke of Wellington and > Alexander the Great rolled into one. On Sunday, after > calling on the Senator to apologise to the 2.5 million > veterans he slandered, Bob Dole couldn’t resist chipping > in his own view of Kerry’s wounds. > "Here’s, you know, a good guy, a good friend. I respect > his record. But three Purple Hearts and never bled that > I know of," he said. "I mean, they’re all superficial > wounds." Dole’s right arm is withered and useless from > wounds received in World War Two, and he never made a > big hoo-ha about it in the ‘96 campaign. > But, more significantly, Dole prizes bipartisan Senatorial > chumminess over almost everything, and my guess is he > wouldn’t be slamming Kerry if he weren’t so revolted by > the unseemly showboating of this campaign. If Vietnam vets > loathe him, World War Two vets seem to think he’s a buffoon. > Short of reversing over the last 128-year-old Spanish-American > War veteran in the retirement home parking lot, it’s hard to > see how Kerry could more comprehensively diminish his military > support. > Still, he’s doing his best. After going around huffing and > a-puffing that, if Bush wanted a debate about Vietnam, > "Here is my answer: BRING. IT. ON," he’s now gone to ground > and is demanding Bush call it off. Meanwhile, his lawyers > are threatening suits and the campaign’s complained to the > Federal Election Commission to get the Swift vets taken off > air. > His hagiographer Douglas Brinkley, after an intriguing > interview with the Telegraph’s David Rennie, seems to have > entered the witness protection programme. If this campaign > were any more inept, Michael Moore would be making a > documentary claiming Kerry’s a Republican plant secretly > controlled by Karl Rove and the House of Saud.

Response:

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Another Approach

Question:

> I’ve always wondered why I’ve never ran across a discussion of an > "Augmentation" approach to alternative energy. I’m sure it’s done, but it > must not be real popular.

Well, it’s fine as long as the grid doesn’t go down, you’re basically using the grid as your storage device. (not directly of course, but as a "get credit for what you put in, pay for what you take back" kind of storage. > When the sun shines or the wind blows, your power bills could be a little to > a lot lower. Best of all, batteries and massive DC current would be taken > out of the equation, and dependability would be very high.

Right there is the problem, I think. One of the benefits of the "bank of batteries" kind of system is that it’s effectively a large UPS system, giving you power when the utility goes down. Around here, my utility drops power many times a year, and a grid-tie system wouldn’t give me the dependability I’d get from having my own battery bank. Still have to have an inverter (in this case, a synchronous inverter to match phases), so the only expense and complexity savings is in the battery (and of course the box for them which is apparently very complex from what I’ve read here?). > I know there’s nothing new here, but I don’t remember it being discussed > specifically. Aside from not having emergency power backup, what’s the down > side of power augmentation?

I think that’s the only one I can see, but it’s a biggie. If it fails to meet 1 of the 3 design criteria, that’s pretty much a non-starter, for me. If it’s just a "Hey, let’s throw up a turbine or three and a few panels to cut down on the bills", sure, no problem. Depends on what you’re after. Dave Hinz

Response:

Utility companys usualy dont pay you what it is worth they charge maybe 4 times more than they pay. But different states have different laws. It would be smart for US conservation for them to play fair. But they are in the business of making money and need to be forced.

Response:

> Utility companys usualy dont pay you what it is worth they charge maybe > 4 times more than they pay. But different states have different laws. It > would be smart for US conservation for them to play fair. But they are > in the business of making money and need to be forced.

It’s, as you say, a state-by-state thing. Talk to your legislators, and get ‘em to do their jobs & fix it if your state doesn’t make such provisions.

Response:

This is called grid tie, and it’s quite common. Search on "netmetering" different states have different rules on how much you get paid, or even if you are allowed. — Steve Spence http://www.beavercreekconsulting.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’ve always wondered why I’ve never ran across a discussion of an > "Augmentation" approach to alternative energy. I’m sure it’s done, but it > must not be real popular. > Here’s what I mean: > The power produced by solar panels or wind power would be fed directly into > the grid. Period. No battery storage or huge inverters. A small inverter and > a light duty grid tie would be all that would be needed. > When the sun shines or the wind blows, your power bills could be a little to > a lot lower. Best of all, batteries and massive DC current would be taken > out of the equation, and dependability would be very high. Maintenance would > be almost zero . It would possibly pay for itself within the owner’s > lifetime. Placing a small Watt hour meter inline with the utility company > meter and keeping track of monthly savings would be fun. It would encourage > you to get efficient lights and appliances too. > I know there’s nothing new here, but I don’t remember it being discussed > specifically. Aside from not having emergency power backup, what’s the down > side of power augmentation? > Bob

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: > : > I’ve always wondered why I’ve never ran across a discussion of an : > "Augmentation" approach to alternative energy. I’m sure it’s done, but it : > must not be real popular. : : Well, it’s fine as long as the grid doesn’t go down, you’re basically : using the grid as your storage device. (not directly of course, but : as a "get credit for what you put in, pay for what you take back" kind of : storage. : : > When the sun shines or the wind blows, your power bills could be a little to : > a lot lower. Best of all, batteries and massive DC current would be taken : > out of the equation, and dependability would be very high. : : Right there is the problem, I think. One of the benefits of the "bank of : batteries" kind of system is that it’s effectively a large UPS system, giving : you power when the utility goes down. Around here, my utility drops power : many times a year, and a grid-tie system wouldn’t give me the dependability : I’d get from having my own battery bank. Still have to have an inverter : (in this case, a synchronous inverter to match phases), so the only expense : and complexity savings is in the battery (and of course the box for them which : is apparently very complex from what I’ve read here?). : : > I know there’s nothing new here, but I don’t remember it being discussed : > specifically. Aside from not having emergency power backup, what’s the down : > side of power augmentation? : : I think that’s the only one I can see, but it’s a biggie. If it fails to : meet 1 of the 3 design criteria, that’s pretty much a non-starter, for me. : If it’s just a "Hey, let’s throw up a turbine or three and a few panels : to cut down on the bills", sure, no problem. Depends on what you’re after. : : Dave Hinz Googleing for "Battery Box" with 94,800 hits found these winners: There are many more. For a home built box. http://www.independent-power.com/battery_box.html Electric car battery box: http://www.jerryrig.com/convert/step10.html Power vent for a battery box: http://www.solarseller.com/battery_box_power_vent_by_zephyr_industrie… Cover materials for Battery boxes: http://www.msha.gov/TECHSUPP/ACC/lists/18bboxin.pdf

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: : >This is called grid tie, and it’s quite common. : : That’s what I said. : : >Search on "netmetering" : >different states have different rules on how much you get paid, or even if : >you are allowed. : : Yea, I know that too. : : I was fishing for the benefits of eliminating batteries. Since most grids : are very reliable, I’m wondering if they are even needed. : Bob No benefits…. Makes you totally dependant upon the grid, which you "Think" is really reliable, but which in a serious crisis is simply turned off! For Instance, Major storms, earthquakes, wild fires, civil disorder, and if the central authority decides there is not enough reserve for government use!

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>>No benefits…. Makes you totally dependant upon the grid, which >you "Think" is really reliable, but which in a serious crisis is >simply turned off! For Instance, Major storms, earthquakes, wild >fires, civil disorder, and if the central authority decides there >is not enough reserve for government use! >So 280 million people are living dangerously? I don’t think so. In 50 years, >I’ve only lived without electricity about a week, and it didn’t hurt me at >all.

I don’t get it Bob. 1. You know you can go grid-tie with a suitable inverter. 2. You know that batteries are optional, and that it’s up to the individual to decide whether they want independent power in the event of a grid outage, or not. What deep issue are we missing here? -=s

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> >So 280 million people are living dangerously? I don’t think so. In 50 years, >I’ve only lived without electricity about a week, and it didn’t hurt me at >all.

This is too narrow a view. You need to imagine that you have put in a hard day, you and your kids are all settled down, the power goes off and you are not even aware of it. Kid wakes up screaming and you have no idea how serious this is. You leap out of bed into the big dark, find the cat sleeping on the rug where your foot landed, and break several sharp objects in your fall. Are you not hurt by the power failure? And I have lived with power failure during the ice storm. We did have candles and plenty of flash lights. Our toilets did not freeze. But the house got seriously cold. Made sleep difficult. A long enough lack of power in mid winter can be a killer. It is easy to underrate this stuff if we think we are somehow tough and we can take it. We aren’t. We need that power and it can become life and death very fast without our machismo having anything to do with it.

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: : : >No benefits…. Makes you totally dependant upon the grid, which : >you "Think" is really reliable, but which in a serious crisis is : >simply turned off! For Instance, Major storms, earthquakes, wild : >fires, civil disorder, and if the central authority decides there : >is not enough reserve for government use! : : So 280 million people are living dangerously? I don’t think so. In 50 years, : I’ve only lived without electricity about a week, and it didn’t hurt me at : all. : Bob Gee, No one said you couldn’t have an opinion! What an opinion! I never said anything about danger! The definition of that is a relative thing. However during a wild fire or a 4.5 to 5+ earthquake the power goes off until they inspect all the distribution system, in some cases many days, often over a week. Good grief it has gone off for over a week because a water main burst and flooded the transformer vaults! We have high winds, which unlike tornados are broad in the impact, often blowing trucks off the freeway, and breaking power lines or poles. all cause someone to loose power. I just heard on the local radio that one area in NE los Angles had been without electric for over ten days, about 60,000 people. Reliable, sure! How reliable? Unpredictable!

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: : So 280 million people are living dangerously? IF your breathing, your living dangerously in some peoples opinion. And it isn’t 280 million, it is the entire earth, all the animals and plants on it. So what is so new about that?

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I’m less than 2 hours from Chicago I’ve live here for 7 weeks and been without power for a total of 9 &%$(*& DAYS. I went home and picked up my generator last weekend and while I was gone the power went off for 5 hours again. mikell

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‘Play fair’?? Gee, who strings the lines to your home? Who sends out crews to repair lines at all hours? If you meet the power company half-way and agree to pay the costs of maintaining the lines half-way between you and the nearest 115kV transmission line, I’ll bet they’d be glad to give you more for your solar-electric. Would you be willing to pay ‘replacement-power’ costs when the clouds roll by? Point is, the rates they charge you are for more than just the energy involved. So most power companies want more for the electricity they deliver than what the raw energy is worth. This has been discussed ad-nauseum in the past. Look for threads discussing net-metering. Figuring the exact cost breakdown and what the electricity is worth is not a simple thing. Solar is usually at peak times (worth more). It doesn’t go *all* the way back to the generating station, but neither does it *just* go to your next door neighbor. What does a block of houses with grid-tie PV do to the fault analysis when a line is downed by a car accident? Many, many more things that just the cost of the energy. daestrom

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Maybe the problem is dependancy on electricity, not the instability of local grids. A 5 hour power outage shouldn’t reduce anyone to a raving lunatic… or are all those panic films made by americains based on reality? Do you all run around like a bunch of lost sheep, drive of roads, scream, sob, and trample people in crowds at the slightest weird event? There I was thinking that these films were all grossely overexagerated! I’ll have to revise my opinion of americans and their ability to deal with out-of-the-ordinary events. If you live in a climate that is so cold that you have a health risk everytime the electricity goes down, maybe you should integrate alternative heating methods – what about a log fire and a couple of mattresse so that you can sleep in the lounge room with the fire? Or a slow-combustion stove (withou an electric fan) That way you can heat and cook when the power is down. Even in totally urban areas, you can have a couple of bags of logs in the garage in case of emergencies, can’t you? We dont’t "need" that power, we "want" it to be comfortable and because we have become addicted to it. Mel Fred B. McGalliard a

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JF on Americans and their SUVs

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>China is too >>big for the marginal aspect to stay forever. In other words, the world >>can only accept so much junk.) > Remember when "made in Japan" meant junk? > Check out the US trade stats in dataweb.usitc.gov The top three > categories (based on 4 digit customs codes) are high tech. Computers > are the top category, about twice as big as the next one. > Most Chinese exports come from foreign invested companies and they > aren’t there to build junk. > In the industrial goods purchasing world, China gets all the > attention. Few people want to scatter their sourcing resources around > to a dozen other Asian economies that are tiny in comparison. > Sure. But the key point remains: the absorbtion capacity of the rest of > the world for goods manufactured in China is limited. Probably quite a > bit below what would be needed to sustain the current model for more than > a few, say ten/twenty years or so of growth at the current rate.

This is right. However, do not neglect the potential in the Chinese economy for internal consumption when the economy grows. This might well extend the timeframe for growth. However, I do not believe that China demographically need more than ten to twenty ears of extreme growth (if they indeed need that much) simply due to demographic reasons. The working part of the population is growing enormously now. Partly due to restructuring of state enterprises (where many people did not work that much) and due to the young people getting older. This is part of the picture. This situation will not last, however. One child policy or not – most Chinese are not getting many children these days. At some point – not so far down the line – the number of new workers entering the workforce who will need to get new jobs will decline very sharply indeed. Nik

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Wow, you picked up on the one generalisation he made in the post! It’s a shame you can’t logically dismiss the rest of it…

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> General Motors’ CIO states that 60% of their growth will come from >> underdeveloped countries such as India and Communist China: >Which is why car makers are scrambling to invest in China. Strategically >however, this is a VERY BAD move. Yes, the car maker may increase profit. But >the higher demand for cars in China will also result in higher demand for oil. >And when you have a few billion people wanting more oil, it will put a lot of >strain on the oil supply. So americans will have to pay more at the pump to >drive their beloved single occupant SUVs. >And when a billion people start burning oil, global warming will suddently >become an emergency and then all those countries who refused to acknowledge >the problem will have to pay the big bucks to not only start to adopt Kyoto >rules, but implement them at a far greater speed (and thus extreme cost to the >economy in short term) than those economies who adopted Kyoto and proceeded at >slower speed over long period with less impact on economy. >If americans want to continue to drive SUVs to the supermarket, they should >not be helping China become a car based society. > OMG!!! All those Americans driving their single occupancy SUVs to the > supermarket are out to get JF!!! > Oh the humanity!!!

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>Callously, I might write that at your age , it’s a little too late to worry >about a few extra dollars spent for gasoline, and to give more attention to >better enjoyment of your "twilight cruise"/terminal phase of journey >through life.

Well, here in the State of Denial, we’re about to take a floating retirement home down the Mexican coast and possibly the Panama Canal and Caribbean. And actually, I think gasoline prices are too low, but would like to see the increase in the form of taxes that go to mass transit. And I’ve been chewing on one of your statements: "It’s time for some to ask themselves to what price must gasoline rise to justify a few drilling platforms in the Catalina Channel? " I think it’s pretty close to infinity as long as I see that it’s socially acceptable, and possibly even a majority idea that it’s OK, to drive way overpowered vehicles and live in semirural areas that involve multimile round trips to get groceries, just because we can. I’ll defend the legal rights of people to do that but I would love to see a mentality change that reduces the number of people who actually choose that life. I’m sure that attitude won’t get me (or anyone else) elected for a while. I’m more concerned with the price of heating oil and natural gas for stationary applications such as home heating and industrial use.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> You better take a look at the present balance of payment records of the US – > they beat all records last quarter. You even have a president who claims > that this is no problem. Even Regan was not THAT stupid. > No, the people who are stupid are the one who take a piece > of paper, not backed by anything but faith, and send us real > goods. Suppose the balance of payments get so far out of > wack that the Federal Reserve can’t handle it? What do you > think they will do? You don’t suppose they might just crank > up the old printing presses do you? I’d say monitor the > printing press industry. When yous see orders for new high > quality presses, hold on! It got sop bad in Germany in the > 20’s that they couldn’t print the money fast enough. > Ed

You are making a good point. However, I do not believe that the printing press is the biggest problem though. What might happen (and what has happened once before) is that the market looses faith in the US$. Now what will happen then? The US$ would enter into a free fall. Its a fee market. Many want to sell – few want to buy. This in turn will lead to huge inflation. Import prises will rise. Remember – contrary to popular belief – that trade is not in itself the reason for the deficit. Trade is only the way through which the economy deals with the underlying imbalance. Namely the imbalance between production and consumption. Well – the US administration might be far too populist to admit this and take the proper action to deal with this. They might blame the Chinese in stead as they have been blaming the Japanese before. The way that the US might deal with such a situation will be 1) huge increase in interest rates to try to stop people from selling their US$. This would cool the US economy down to the freezing point which in turn would bring down the imbalance 2) ask (again) their European and Asian allies to tell their central banks to buy US$. They might agree to do this IF the they getting paid politically by the US government. The Chinese might ask the US to remove their military from the Chinese Sea so that they can take care of the Taiwan problem they way they find fit. The Germans might demand the US submit to the Kyoto treaty unconditionally (you’ll have to pay European prices at the pump (1-2 US$$ a litter!) and the French might tell them to ask them before the US military is being used for anything. Whoever might demand that the US agree to the international court of law that would allow US military personnel to stand trial in an international court for any crimes they might have committed (hi hi Rumsfeldt so long. You’ll enjoy the company of the people from the Balkans. Many of them were – as many neocons. from the US – former Communists). The Japanese might – beside supporting the Europeans in some of their demands – demand that all street signs in the US as well as public announcements get written and spoken also in their language. All in all – the military spending might be hugely reduced (together with Medicare, pension payments, road works, education) and taxes will increase dramatically – in particular taxes on energy. This will bring down the government deficit (again created by yet another presidential lunatic who might even be more stupid than Reagan) which would reduce the amount of cash in the economy – hence bring down the imbalance between production and consumption. Don’t worry about the printing press. Worry about the level of economic activity, inflation and the level of political influence. Worry also about the level of taxes (in particular on energy) and the level of government services. These are the areas that most likely will be hit – and hit hard! One light note though. This might well make the US less interresting as a target of terror. Hence you will be more safe. Nik

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>China is too >big for the marginal aspect to stay forever. In other words, the world >can only accept so much junk.)

Remember when "made in Japan" meant junk? Check out the US trade stats in dataweb.usitc.gov The top three categories (based on 4 digit customs codes) are high tech. Computers are the top category, about twice as big as the next one. Most Chinese exports come from foreign invested companies and they aren’t there to build junk. In the industrial goods purchasing world, China gets all the attention. Few people want to scatter their sourcing resources around to a dozen other Asian economies that are tiny in comparison.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->China is too >big for the marginal aspect to stay forever. In other words, the world >can only accept so much junk.) > Remember when "made in Japan" meant junk? > Check out the US trade stats in dataweb.usitc.gov The top three > categories (based on 4 digit customs codes) are high tech. Computers > are the top category, about twice as big as the next one. > Most Chinese exports come from foreign invested companies and they > aren’t there to build junk. > In the industrial goods purchasing world, China gets all the > attention. Few people want to scatter their sourcing resources around > to a dozen other Asian economies that are tiny in comparison.

Sure. But the key point remains: the absorbtion capacity of the rest of the world for goods manufactured in China is limited. Probably quite a bit below what would be needed to sustain the current model for more than a few, say ten/twenty years or so of growth at the current rate.

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>But the key point remains: the absorbtion capacity of the rest of >the world for goods manufactured in China is limited. Probably quite a >bit below what would be needed to sustain the current model for more than >a few, say ten/twenty years or so of growth at the current rate.

Of course the absorption capacity for every country is limited, but to date Chinese products have substituted for products that other countries used to build. Probably lower costs from China have increased the market for those products at the same time. The population of China is about 30% more than that of North America and Western Europe combined. Only a minority of Chinese are to date well enough educated to participate in modern manufacturing but they seem to have a good recognition of the need to spread their education system. There is a tremendous production capacity there. Recent legal changes now guarantee the property rights of Chinese business owners and I think that will lead to an explosion of entrepreneurship as people build confidence that the rights are really guaranteed. Overseas Chinese will start to return to China. At some point, as in Japan, we’ll see "designed in China" products start to emerge. To me none of this is bad. Economics isn’t a zero-some game. It does throw a strain on previously industrialized countries who have had a higher level of income than China but in a global economy if one country’s people want a higher income than another’s, they either have to do things the other country’s people can’t do, or do the same thing more efficiently.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->But the key point remains: the absorbtion capacity of the rest of >the world for goods manufactured in China is limited. Probably quite a >bit below what would be needed to sustain the current model for more than >a few, say ten/twenty years or so of growth at the current rate. > Of course the absorption capacity for every country is limited, but to > date Chinese products have substituted for products that other > countries used to build. Probably lower costs from China have > increased the market for those products at the same time. > The population of China is about 30% more than that of North America > and Western Europe combined. Only a minority of Chinese are to date > well enough educated to participate in modern manufacturing but they > seem to have a good recognition of the need to spread their education > system. There is a tremendous production capacity there. > Recent legal changes now guarantee the property rights of Chinese > business owners and I think that will lead to an explosion of > entrepreneurship as people build confidence that the rights are really > guaranteed. Overseas Chinese will start to return to China. At some > point, as in Japan, we’ll see "designed in China" products start to > emerge. > To me none of this is bad. Economics isn’t a zero-some game.

No argument there. The current model or actually any export model is unavoidably limited by the capacity of the rest of the world to absorb them. Whether designed abroad or quality designed in China. China is just big. I expect at some point they will have to switch to a growth model based upon domestic demand. Which is much slower and harder. The other issue is politics. Will the current repressive regime manage to retain control long enough, in a country that becomes wealthier? If not, how much turmoil? At which point rampant corruption leads to implosion? At which point the growing inequality, especially between rural and urnban areas, leads to one more peasant revolt (AKA as Mandate of Heavens, or "Chinese democracy")? > It does throw a strain on previously industrialized countries who have > had a higher level of income than China but in a global economy if one > country’s people want a higher income than another’s, they either have > to do things the other country’s people can’t do, or do the same thing > more efficiently.

Sure. But that was not my point.

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Dick Locke extrapolated from data available… >At 64, I’ll drive >gas guzzlers until I’m bedridden or gone, hastening the day when your >generation > You’re only three years older than I am, sir.

Callously, I might write that at your age , it’s a little too late to worry about a few extra dollars spent for gasoline, and to give more attention to better enjoyment of your "twilight cruise"/terminal phase of journey through life. Having spent the last decade attempting to curtail my professional/occupational efforts, only to find that fewer clients or "phase down" have not reduced my workload, I wish that I had projected earlier that while some really bad investments of the late 70s/early 80s have proved to be worse than worthless, a couple of cheap deals have begun to make up the difference. I spent too long at sea to find any but momentary and fleeting pleasure in "vacation cruises", am happy with a couple of weeks in Europe every other year, no longer require a biennial transfusion of NYC’s elixir, have almost 40 years ago "been to see the elephant" as the expression goes (and is understood by the conoscenti) and therefore need no exposure to the raw and untamed, receive absolutely no additional comfort or exhilaration from heated seats or the fooferaw which makes vehicles with names like Denali and Navigator cost 10 or 20 grand more than their basic counterparts, yet am positively stimulated and thrilled by walking out on a cool dawn to climb into a hulking, guzzling SUV, ice chest loaded, tucker box filled, plenty of whisky stowed, enough and suitable clothing for various occasions on board, to drive across and experience North America. At my 64 there are moments to be savored, twilight across the slopes above the Greasy Grass, a morning wade fishing on the flats of Matagorda Bay, the smell of a mug of good coffee at dawn in the high desert (or the bouquet that rushes behind the cork of a good red at sunset), the sight of a really good buck – one that I may shoot, photograph or even better now simply sit there – moving out of the brush and across the far slope, and the basic comforts for arriving and departing those moments, which make the price of gas or its future availability to my grandchildren almost entirely inconsequential. I’m into savoring and am only looking for more time to do it. As old Harley used to say…. "Bubs, I reckon the fishing ain’t worth a shit out to the cemetery, so what say we slip on out and wet a plug now." TMO

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Dick Locke extrapolated from data available… > Recent legal changes now guarantee the property rights of Chinese > business owners and I think that will lead to an explosion of > entrepreneurship as people build confidence that the rights are really > guaranteed. Overseas Chinese will start to return to China. At some > point, as in Japan, we’ll see "designed in China" products start to > emerge.

…..But that doesn’t avoid the inevitable (for China and its people) harsh confrontation with economic reality, the moment or moments when foreign markets have absorbed all the Chinese products (good or junk – and here deveil makes a pretty good point) for which demand or funds to buy exist. For years, China has held its currency exchange rate well below projections of "real" value, acting to delay the point at which price resistance or cheaper competitive suppliers (in even less developed producing countries) makes the purchase of Chinese goods unattractive. China’s need for foreign POL actually serves to hasten the inevitable, for China must use growing amounts of other national "currencies" gained through expanded trade to buy oil, thus reducing her flexibility, those big reserves of furrin’ cash which have allowed her to deflate her own currency. > To me none of this is bad. Economics isn’t a zero-some game. > It does throw a strain on previously industrialized countries who have > had a higher level of income than China but in a global economy if one > country’s people want a higher income than another’s, they either have > to do things the other country’s people can’t do, or do the same thing > more efficiently.

The theory’s both sound and long-standing, but ignores all these petty dislocations, political jimmy-rigging, conflicts, occasional genocides and outright perversions of the testbook approaches which go on around us. Dictators, oligarchs and possessors of substantial political majorities have traditionally claimed personal and national immunity – from temporary to millenial – to even the best tested of economic theories. TMO

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> I don’t think I quite agree on reserves. What has happened is not so much > an increase in known reserves, but mostly technology improvements which > have allowed to recover more from known fields. Sure, there is potential > for more of the same, but at increasing costs. Given that, plus as you > say, China, and other countries which will appear on the map (what about > Russia?), I suspect the price of oil has only one way to go.

I can foresee the day when us Yanks invade Canada and seize control of the Athabasca tar sands in Alberta — Best Greg

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>> I don’t think I quite agree on reserves. What has happened is not so much > an increase in known reserves, but mostly technology improvements which > have allowed to recover more from known fields. Sure, there is potential > for more of the same, but at increasing costs. Given that, plus as you > say, China, and other countries which will appear on the map (what about > Russia?), I suspect the price of oil has only one way to go. > I can foresee the day when us Yanks invade Canada and seize control of the > Athabasca tar sands in Alberta

I thought you had already? Anyway, that’s not the issue. The oil sands thing may contain quite a bit, but it’s not cheap. Furethermore, the day they open their eye with the water and associated environmental problems which people try hard not to talk about, cost will go up big time. Ever flown over Northern Alberta? Ever seen all they dirty water reservoirs? Apparently they have no idea of what to do with it except just storing in in ponds.

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>At 64, I’ll drive >gas guzzlers until I’m bedridden or gone, hastening the day when your >generation

You’re only three years older than I am, sir.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> General Motors’ CIO states that 60% of their growth will come from > underdeveloped countries such as India and Communist China: >Which is why car makers are scrambling to invest in China. Strategically >however, this is a VERY BAD move. Yes, the car maker may increase profit. But >the higher demand for cars in China will also result in higher demand for oil. >And when you have a few billion people wanting more oil, it will put a lot of >strain on the oil supply. So americans will have to pay more at the pump to >drive their beloved single occupant SUVs. >And when a billion people start burning oil, global warming will suddently >become an emergency and then all those countries who refused to acknowledge >the problem will have to pay the big bucks to not only start to adopt Kyoto >rules, but implement them at a far greater speed (and thus extreme cost to the >economy in short term) than those economies who adopted Kyoto and proceeded at >slower speed over long period with less impact on economy. >If americans want to continue to drive SUVs to the supermarket, they should >not be helping China become a car based society.

OMG!!! All those Americans driving their single occupancy SUVs to the supermarket are out to get JF!!! Oh the humanity!!!

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Montreal, took the time to enviously write about Americans: >The american dream of owning a home with white picket fence, 2.5 children, 3 >SUVs, 4 TVs was possible when you had skills nobody else had and when your >employer had unique products not made anywhere else.

Poor Canadians, nothing to do but spend their entire lives staring jealously across the border.

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> Montreal, took the time to enviously write about Americans: >The american dream of owning a home with white picket fence, 2.5 children, 3 >SUVs, 4 TVs was possible when you had skills nobody else had and when your >employer had unique products not made anywhere else. > Poor Canadians, nothing to do but spend their entire lives staring > jealously across the border.

You better take a look at the present balance of payment records of the US – they beat all records last quarter. You even have a president who claims that this is no problem. Even Regan was not THAT stupid. Nik

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Has JF found a job yet? — Best Greg "I think I know the answer to that one…."

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> You better take a look at the present balance of payment records of the US – > they beat all records last quarter. You even have a president who claims > that this is no problem. Even Regan was not THAT stupid.

No, the people who are stupid are the one who take a piece of paper, not backed by anything but faith, and send us real goods. Suppose the balance of payments get so far out of wack that the Federal Reserve can’t handle it? What do you think they will do? You don’t suppose they might just crank up the old printing presses do you? I’d say monitor the printing press industry. When yous see orders for new high quality presses, hold on! It got sop bad in Germany in the 20’s that they couldn’t print the money fast enough. Ed

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Poor JF extrapolated from data available… > Montreal, took the time to enviously write about Americans: >The american dream of owning a home with white picket fence, 2.5 >children, 3 SUVs, 4 TVs was possible when you had skills nobody else >had and when your employer had unique products not made anywhere else. > Poor Canadians, nothing to do but spend their entire lives staring > jealously across the border.

He’s close… I only have two Expeditions and an F150, 2 children, 200 ft of tall cedar fence in the back, and 3 TVs (but several PCs), my skills are comparably modest and I employ myself. My yougest, a daughter, works for a company recently purchased by a cagy investor, at 31 makes a salary nudging 6 figures (not counting the bonus), drives a Mercedes and helps sell shit to Canadians unable to figure out how to do it themselves…. TMO

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>I only have two Expeditions and an F150

Let’s put this in an envelope and in about 20 years when we are further into our dotage pull it out and look at it. I believe that this attitude is the biggest strategic problem the US faces. It makes us dependent on doing what a bunch of dodgy characters (foreign and domestic) want us to do. We will be forced to face up to this issue in the fairly near future.

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Dick Locke extrapolated from data available… >I only have two Expeditions and an F150 > Let’s put this in an envelope and in about 20 years when we are > further into our dotage pull it out and look at it. I believe that > this attitude is the biggest strategic problem the US faces. It makes > us dependent on doing what a bunch of dodgy characters (foreign and > domestic) want us to do. We will be forced to face up to this issue > in the fairly near future.

Hey, I’m one of those "dodgy characters" (domestic version thereof) who makes some of my living from oil & gas production payments (and would make a lot more if the domestic drilling business had not been put into an almost terminal decline by policies beginning some 30 years ago). It’s time for some to ask themselves to what price must gasoline rise to justify a few drilling platforms in the Catalina Channel? I can hazard a guess (and my monthly checks will rise substantially in the interim)…. Meanwhile, gasoline has dropped locally from a high of $1.91 for 87UL down to $1.66 at the supermercado yesterday, less in inflation adjusted dollars than the price I paid while driving my first car back in 1953 (a vehicle which was much less efficient than either of my s big SUVs or my pickup). As for those foreign versions of "dodgy characters", with the alternatives of retreating to the Stone Age without oil revenues while our ex-Soviet, now Russian friends ramp up (with our technical help) to address rising demand, even the worst bad actors in the Islamic world have always managed to keep their pipelines open – and the evidence of European profiteering from Iraqi "UN-approved oil for food" program ought to make you quite aware of a cynical tide in the affairs of men, especially the politically connected…. Meanwhile, I’m not going to use my oil profits to buy stock in sadly unrealistic auto manufacturers producing overpriced, under-performing hybrids already obsolete before they hit the streets. At 64, I’ll drive gas guzzlers until I’m bedridden or gone, hastening the day when your generation will have to force science to adapt and adopt far more cutting edge new technology than is currently being bandied about. Even the magic of "fuel cells" is likely to remain undelivered without substantial compromise and cost benefit and risk benefit equations potentially unacceptable to many. You might be surprised at how oil reserves seem to spring forth from the fertile efforts of those who can afford to explore for them, although I do fear that the gaping and inefficient maw of China will gobble up at lot of POL in the next few years (until its inevitable confrontation with the grim economic realities of that sort of artificialized economy so dependent on continued inflow of foreign capital). TMO

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> Hey, I’m one of those "dodgy characters" (domestic version thereof) who > makes some of my living from oil & gas production payments (and would make > a lot more if the domestic drilling business had not been put into an > almost terminal decline by policies beginning some 30 years ago). It’s > time for some to ask themselves to what price must gasoline rise to justify > a few drilling platforms in the Catalina Channel? I can hazard a guess > (and my monthly checks will rise substantially in the interim)…. > Meanwhile, gasoline has dropped locally from a high of $1.91 for 87UL down > to $1.66 at the supermercado yesterday, less in inflation adjusted dollars > than the price I paid while driving my first car back in 1953 (a vehicle > which was much less efficient than either of my s big SUVs or my pickup).

Agreed. Way too cheap if you ask me. Your revenue would probably way more than offset the increase if gas prices were to double. Which they may incidentally. > Meanwhile, I’m not going to use my oil profits to buy stock in sadly > unrealistic auto manufacturers producing overpriced, under-performing > hybrids already obsolete before they hit the streets. At 64, I’ll drive > gas guzzlers until I’m bedridden or gone, hastening the day when your > generation will have to force science to adapt and adopt far more > cutting edge new technology than is currently being bandied about. Even > the magic of "fuel cells" is likely to remain undelivered without > substantial compromise and cost benefit and risk benefit equations > potentially unacceptable to many.

Not really playing the party line here, but I would not be surprised if you were right wrt fuel cells. OTOH, you should not dismiss hybrids too quickly. They are neither necessarily overpriced or underpowered. On the first aspect, given that, especially for urban driving, they potentially double your fuel efficiency, it’s only fair that they should cost a bit more. On the performance issue, I think the difference will disappear sooner rather than later. Bottom line is that technology exists today to make cars about twice as effcient, at a cost of maybe a couple thousand dollars/vehicle, with very little side effects on the way you drive etc. Only issue left is, how much higher does the price of oil have to go until both industry and consumers start looking at this seriously. > You might be surprised at how oil reserves seem to spring forth from the > fertile efforts of those who can afford to explore for them, although I > do fear that the gaping and inefficient maw of China will gobble up at > lot of POL in the next few years (until its inevitable confrontation > with the grim economic realities of that sort of artificialized economy > so dependent on continued inflow of foreign capital).

I don’t think I quite agree on reserves. What has happened is not so much an increase in known reserves, but mostly technology improvements which have allowed to recover more from known fields. Sure, there is potential for more of the same, but at increasing costs. Given that, plus as you say, China, and other countries which will appear on the map (what about Russia?), I suspect the price of oil has only one way to go. (I am inclined to agree on the limits of growth for China, but for different reasons, some political, but also because the current model depends on exports nece3ssarily marginal in theire markets. China is too big for the marginal aspect to stay forever. In other words, the world can only accept so much junk.)

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GW is poisoning our bablies

Question:

by raising the arsenic level in our water to 5 times what it was under Clinton, GW is poisoning our babies! I don’t like people who lose us 3 million jobs, squander our surplus, rape the environment, steal our right to privacy, reward the wealthy, screw the poor & middle class hard working people, make backroom kickback deals with big oil & drug companies and poison the babies! — Spam catcher! :)

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(snip leftist whinefest) WTF is a bablie? LV

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>(snip leftist whinefest) >WTF is a bablie? >LV

Better yet …. how the hell did he get out of my killfile again? Lostpup198 "Eternal vigilence is the price of liberty." — Wendell Phillips (1811-1884)

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> by raising the arsenic level in our water to 5 times what it was under > Clinton, GW is poisoning our babies! > I don’t like people who lose us 3 million jobs, squander our surplus, rape > the environment, steal our right to privacy, reward the wealthy, screw the > poor & middle class hard working people, make backroom kickback deals with > big oil & drug companies and poison the babies!

Did you see GWB put that arsenic into the baby’s water? You’re the same clueless idiot that you were the last time you showed up with your BS. I’ll bet you’re related to Blum right? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> — > Spam catcher! :)

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>(snip leftist whinefest) >WTF is a bablie? >LV > Better yet …. how the hell did he get out of my killfile again? > Lostpup198

Even more amazing is that fact that this dick has figured out how to breathe. This a-hole is darned near as stupid as is Blum.

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>by raising the arsenic level in our water to 5 times what it was under >Clinton, GW is poisoning our babies!

What Bush did was to rescind Clinton’s executive order, which had been issued on the eve of Bush’s inauguration with full knowledge that the standards imposed by that order were impractical and unattainable without shutting industry (in this case mining) down completely. – It was a purely political ploy from a purely political president. Its purpose was to create the transparent propaganda idiots like you are still spewing. – If Clinton’s order was so environmentally motivated, why did he wait until the last minute to do it? – Maybe some environmentalist in the White House slipped the order in with the paperwork for all the pardons for Hugh Rodham’s clients. – You are a fuckwit. Back into the killfile with ya. Jeff "Look out for the other guy? I *am* the other guy."

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Fucking idiot, Guitar World doesn’t give a shit about your offspring. atg

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> I don’t like people who lose us 3 million jobs, squander our surplus, rape > the environment, steal our right to privacy, reward the wealthy, screw the > poor & middle class hard working people, make backroom kickback deals with > big oil & drug companies and poison the babies!

I do. Bush for 2004! – Eric

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Where is that valve where you can just turn the arsenic up at? Seems to me, you could just wait until george leaves, and turn the damn thing back down. hope that helps.

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>Even more amazing is that fact that this dick has figured out how to >breathe. >This a-hole is darned near as stupid as is Blum. > He was smart enough to troll you guys fairly well. :-)

Well, it probably seems like that, but we know him, he isn’t trolling anybody, he is just getting the obligatory abuse before he gets dumped into the killfile again.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> by raising the arsenic level in our water to 5 times what it was under > Clinton, GW is poisoning our babies! > I don’t like people who lose us 3 million jobs, squander our surplus, rape > the environment, steal our right to privacy, reward the wealthy, screw the > poor & middle class hard working people, make backroom kickback deals with > big oil & drug companies and poison the babies! > Where is that valve where you can just turn the arsenic up at? > Seems to me, you could just wait until george leaves, and turn the damn > thing back down. > hope that helps.

I heard that it is located in the Executive washroom at Haliburton. I hear that they just like to give it a twist for laughs every now and again. None of them of course have children, so they don’t care. And seeing how they are all robots, they don’t drink the water themselves.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > by raising the arsenic level in our water to 5 times what it was under > > Clinton, GW is poisoning our babies! > > I don’t like people who lose us 3 million jobs, squander our surplus, > rape > > the environment, steal our right to privacy, reward the wealthy, screw > the > > poor & middle class hard working people, make backroom kickback deals > with > > big oil & drug companies and poison the babies! > Where is that valve where you can just turn the arsenic up at? > Seems to me, you could just wait until george leaves, and turn the damn > thing back down. > hope that helps. > I heard that it is located in the Executive washroom at Haliburton. I hear > that they > just like to give it a twist for laughs every now and again. None of them > of course have children, so they don’t care. And seeing how they are all > robots, they don’t drink the water themselves.

That must be it. Cuz, if they had kids, no way would they even crank it a little bit. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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And GAWOL Bush the dumbest in a trio of circle-jerking pseudo-intellectual rubes who actually believe they have meaningful lives. Eaton, simian #1, seemingly the smartest, does nothing but assume everything, therefore mostly wrong about everything. His brown nose tells it all. Lupi Pooplips, simian #2, chickenshit and pathetic weasel contributes links to knowledgeable people’s sites and thinks that’s contributing. Otherwise the sewer rodent posts nothing of value. His brown lips reveals what he really is about. Duhbya, simian #3, the lovable chimp for the cute role, appointed leader of the fascist world of swine. His cartoon image licking the boots of Cheaty lets us all know what he’s really up to. The black tongue syndrome. PS: Ever notice how Cheaney talks tough out of the side of his mouth? Or is that an indication that he’s just a big liar? Notice how Rummy looks like a character from the "Night of the Living Dead"? I mean the guy looks like he’s empty inside. Notice how Wolfy looks like a vampire with those pointy ears? Notice how Asscroft looks like he’s always hungover? Stay tuned for more of the creepy guy index. Mr. Electron May the Great Spirit let you see the truth and reveal the lies of the Boosh regime.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> And GAWOL Bush the dumbest in a trio of circle-jerking pseudo-intellectual > rubes who actually believe they have meaningful lives. > Eaton, simian #1, seemingly the smartest, does nothing but assume > everything, > therefore mostly wrong about everything. His brown nose tells it all. > Lupi Pooplips, simian #2, chickenshit and pathetic weasel contributes links > to knowledgeable people’s sites and thinks that’s contributing. Otherwise > the sewer rodent posts nothing of value. His brown lips reveals what he > really is about. > Duhbya, simian #3, the lovable chimp for the cute role, appointed leader > of the fascist world of swine. His cartoon image licking the boots of Cheaty > lets us all know what he’s really up to. The black tongue syndrome. > PS: > Ever notice how Cheaney talks tough out of the side of his mouth? > Or is that an indication that he’s just a big liar? > Notice how Rummy looks like a character from the "Night of the Living Dead"? > I mean the guy looks like he’s empty inside. > Notice how Wolfy looks like a vampire with those pointy ears? > Notice how Asscroft looks like he’s always hungover? > Stay tuned for more of the creepy guy index. > Mr. Electron > May the Great Spirit let you see the truth and reveal the lies of the Boosh > regime.

Kids, let the above rants be a lesson to you about the dangers of alcohol and drugs. Just say "no" to blumbling idiots. Mike F.

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LOL….What I can’t figure out is, just who he thinks reads his stuff anyway?

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>LOL….What I can’t figure out is, just who he thinks reads his stuff >anyway?

If people would stop responding to it, I’d never see it at all. Pete — And all that was left was to test it. –Dr. Jekyll

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >LOL….What I can’t figure out is, just who he thinks reads his stuff > >anyway? > If people would stop responding to it, I’d never see it at all. >For years AGA regulars have watched Blumbles march into >the group and shamelessly soil himself. Most just >ignore the disgusting daily spectacle, but a few, >and the noobs, simply can’t control the gag reflex. >Lupi

It’s like looking at an accident. Pete — And all that was left was to test it. –Dr. Jekyll

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>LOL….What I can’t figure out is, just who he thinks reads his stuff >anyway? > If people would stop responding to it, I’d never see it at all. > Pete

Yeah me too, and that goes for a few other fanatic retards we have in here as well. Yeah, Yeah, I know there are some who think I’m a fanatic retard too, but they are more than welcome to plonk me if they want. And really….I won’t even change socks every week in a lame attempt to get through to them.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> >LOL….What I can’t figure out is, just who he thinks reads his stuff >> >anyway? >> If people would stop responding to it, I’d never see it at all. >For years AGA regulars have watched Blumbles march into >the group and shamelessly soil himself. Most just >ignore the disgusting daily spectacle, but a few, >and the noobs, simply can’t control the gag reflex. >Lupi > It’s like looking at an accident. > Pete

LMAO… Yeah, like an accident on Dr Moreau’s Island.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >> >LOL….What I can’t figure out is, just who he thinks reads his stuff > >> >anyway? > >> If people would stop responding to it, I’d never see it at all. > >For years AGA regulars have watched Blumbles march into > >the group and shamelessly soil himself. Most just > >ignore the disgusting daily spectacle, but a few, > >and the noobs, simply can’t control the gag reflex. > >Lupi > It’s like looking at an accident. > Pete >LMAO… Yeah, like an accident on Dr Moreau’s Island.

More like an accident at the retirement home. "Look out for the other guy? I *am* the other guy."

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Yeah me too, and that goes for a few other fanatic retards we have in here > as well. > Yeah, Yeah, I know there are some who think I’m a fanatic retard too, >Blumbles is a fanatic retard, you’re a fanatic retard ‘whisper-er’.[1] >Lupi >[1] fanatic retard ‘whisper-er’: an altruistic individual who attempts >to have rational conversation with an individual incapable of rational >thought, in a futile attempt to bring the irrational individual into a >state of sanity, and ultimately, successful integration with rational >society. 8^)

You don’t have a fanatic retard problem; your fanatic retard has a people problem. Jeff "Look out for the other guy? I *am* the other guy."

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> >> >LOL….What I can’t figure out is, just who he thinks reads his stuff >> >> >anyway? >> >> If people would stop responding to it, I’d never see it at all. >> >For years AGA regulars have watched Blumbles march into >> >the group and shamelessly soil himself. Most just >> >ignore the disgusting daily spectacle, but a few, >> >and the noobs, simply can’t control the gag reflex. >> >Lupi >> It’s like looking at an accident. >> Pete >LMAO… Yeah, like an accident on Dr Moreau’s Island. > More like an accident at the retirement home.

Hmmm….good point too. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "Look out for the other guy? I *am* the other guy."

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Yeah me too, and that goes for a few other fanatic retards we have in here > as well. > Yeah, Yeah, I know there are some who think I’m a fanatic retard too, > Blumbles is a fanatic retard, you’re a fanatic retard ‘whisper-er’.[1] > Lupi > [1] fanatic retard ‘whisper-er’: an altruistic individual who attempts > to have rational conversation with an individual incapable of rational > thought, in a futile attempt to bring the irrational individual into a > state of sanity, and ultimately, successful integration with rational > society. 8^)

Hey! That sounds better when you put that way! I just figured I was a wacko-magnet.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> Yeah me too, and that goes for a few other fanatic retards we have in here >> as well. >> Yeah, Yeah, I know there are some who think I’m a fanatic retard too, >Blumbles is a fanatic retard, you’re a fanatic retard ‘whisper-er’.[1] >Lupi >[1] fanatic retard ‘whisper-er’: an altruistic individual who attempts >to have rational conversation with an individual incapable of rational >thought, in a futile attempt to bring the irrational individual into a >state of sanity, and ultimately, successful integration with rational >society. 8^) > You don’t have a fanatic retard problem; your fanatic retard has a people > problem. > Jeff

"Well Damn it to Hell! I knows that the boy is autistic but what the fuck’s wrong with ‘im?"… bartender in a previous incarnation)

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >> Yeah me too, and that goes for a few other fanatic retards we have in >here > >> as well. > >> Yeah, Yeah, I know there are some who think I’m a fanatic retard too, > >Blumbles is a fanatic retard, you’re a fanatic retard ‘whisper-er’.[1] > >Lupi > >[1] fanatic retard ‘whisper-er’: an altruistic individual who attempts > >to have rational conversation with an individual incapable of rational > >thought, in a futile attempt to bring the irrational individual into a > >state of sanity, and ultimately, successful integration with rational > >society. 8^) > You don’t have a fanatic retard problem; your fanatic retard has a people > problem. > Jeff >"Well Damn it to Hell! >I knows that the boy is autistic >but what the fuck’s wrong with ‘im?"… >bartender in a previous incarnation)

LOL! "Look out for the other guy? I *am* the other guy."

Response:

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The where is and I Miss thread

Question:

and another one I thought of today is Allie, who dropped in for a while this summer but had to leav when "the head" came home. — Nann remove the Gator cheer to email me It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. – Aristotle

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>>And Mike from New Jersey who I always think about this time of year because >Lori was always so gentle with him. >M > I miss Mike, too. He was crass, frustrated, obnoxious, but I liked him. > Alot. Something I related to about him, I guess, even though he pushed > alot of people’s buttons.

LOL, I prefer to think that he is doing so well that he does not have time for posting. > I miss Kitty so, so much. Does anyone know what happened to her? How > she’s doing, if she’s doing at all?

No facts,,,just impressions. I think she could no longer use her hands well enough to post through her web tv account and it was so full of unanswered emails that it would not receive any longer. I like to think of her with the picture that was post here. She was not in a wheelchair then. Our medicine Di, came along to late for her. The damage was done. That was a very attractive woman with the spirit of a lion. > I miss Toni, though she just posted a few days ago. I miss Angela. > And, remember LadyKristi? Rox? I hope she got the help she so > desperately needed.

The last I remember Angela moved into the NE from the Oregon area and was doing well. Harv

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>And Mike from New Jersey who I always think about this time of year because >>Lori was always so gentle with him. >>M > I miss Mike, too. He was crass, frustrated, obnoxious, but I liked him. > Alot. Something I related to about him, I guess, even though he pushed > alot of people’s buttons. > LOL, I prefer to think that he is doing so well that he does not have > time for posting.

It would be nice to think so, but I haven’t seen him in the New York Knicks newsgroup either, so I don’t know… — AF

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>The last I remember Angela moved into the NE from the Oregon area and >was doing well. >Harv

I corresponded with Angela, last summer. She was looking for some in home help for her brother in law (who lives me here in Iowa) and asked if I knew anybody who might help him. She was doing very well, herself. Char "Remember, I’m pulling for ya’. We’re all in this together." Red Green

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(who lives me here in Iowa) That should read (who lives NEAR me in Iowa) Char "Remember, I’m pulling for ya’. We’re all in this together." Red Green

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Last time I heard from here, Norio was in New England. I have misplaced her email or I would check on her. Duckie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Organization: AT&T Broadband > Newsgroups: alt.support.arthritis > I was just thinking about Rev. Sue the other day and Nina. I just noticed > Nina is back. Glad to see her back. Anybody keep in touch with Rev. Sue? > I liked her! > kate > Add Rev. Sue to that list—just where did she disappear to lately??? > Another person that has been missing lately and one whom I am quite > concerned about is Mark. Last we heard he was having quite a time with > his breathing on top of the hep. C and his arthritis. Add Kendall too! > Donna G

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I have been thinking about her as well. I think Aim had her email addy. Duckie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Organization: EarthLink Inc. — http://www.EarthLink.net > Newsgroups: alt.support.arthritis > and another one I thought of today is Allie, who dropped in for a while this > summer but had to leav when "the head" came home. > — > Nann > remove the Gator cheer to email me > It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without > accepting it. – Aristotle

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>Last time I heard from here, Norio was in New England.

Our Noria is becoming quite the world traveler isnt he? LOL He is hoping to make it to Iowa next summer. Now wouldnt THAT be special! Char "Remember, I’m pulling for ya’. We’re all in this together." Red Green

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I can add a few names to that list. Carol Down, Carol Eutice, Cushman, Jack Vance, Jolynn Jseyller, Kenny, Mary O, Nockeral, Tommy Gannon. They’re are a few more on my list which I’ll mention if I get any responces from these ones. I asked about tommy a while back but didn’t hear anything so assumed no one new where he was. He use to keep our birthday page up to date. Shirley R. Kelowna B.C. Canada

> And I miss Aase Marit, who used to post here with great regularity. > She had Ehler Dahnlos syndrome (I think I spelled that wrong) and PA, > the cutest little dog, and ran a web site called Flakers. I emailed a > bit with her a couple of years ago and then suddenly she didn’t reply > any more. Does anyone have an update about her? > Cheers, > Evelyn (mother of Elena, who has JRA > and Pancha, who has FMS)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I miss MomBom (lucy) who still e-mails me but who I miss posting > Kitty, the Queen > Dorothy Napier > Soc Jog > Marg > The Kens > That little guy Gary, who believed in CMO (which finally stopped working for > him last I heard) who was the cause of a thousand flame wars but who believed > in CMO with all of his heart > Norio > Hildagh > Nicki Roberts > Tiny little list but I miss and would love to hear from all of these people. > It’s funny how people are there and then not. I always hope that absense is > because they found the right drug and are in remission (probaly soc and Marg) > but often I think it might be because they are too ill to post (Kitty) > So gang, who do you miss and want to know how they are now? > M

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And I miss Aase Marit, who used to post here with great regularity. She had Ehler Dahnlos syndrome (I think I spelled that wrong) and PA, the cutest little dog, and ran a web site called Flakers. I emailed a bit with her a couple of years ago and then suddenly she didn’t reply any more. Does anyone have an update about her? Cheers, Evelyn (mother of Elena, who has JRA and Pancha, who has FMS) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > I miss MomBom (lucy) who still e-mails me but who I miss posting > Kitty, the Queen > Dorothy Napier > Soc Jog > Marg > The Kens > That little guy Gary, who believed in CMO (which finally stopped working for > him last I heard) who was the cause of a thousand flame wars but who believed > in CMO with all of his heart > Norio > Hildagh > Nicki Roberts > Tiny little list but I miss and would love to hear from all of these people. > It’s funny how people are there and then not. I always hope that absense is > because they found the right drug and are in remission (probaly soc and Marg) > but often I think it might be because they are too ill to post (Kitty) > So gang, who do you miss and want to know how they are now? > M

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I was just thinking about Rev. Sue the other day and Nina. I just noticed Nina is back. Glad to see her back. Anybody keep in touch with Rev. Sue? I liked her! kate

Add Rev. Sue to that list—just where did she disappear to lately??? Another person that has been missing lately and one whom I am quite concerned about is Mark. Last we heard he was having quite a time with his breathing on top of the hep. C and his arthritis. Add Kendall too! Donna G

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When I first came here there was MamaLana and Asait Marit I think that’s how it was spelled. Also Duhiggy guy that Kitty got in a big fight with. Don’t miss him he was a jerk. Some have changed their names I was Barneydk a long time ago. Kathy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I miss MomBom (lucy) who still e-mails me but who I miss posting > …. and a string of names. > Unless they’ve changed their on-line names and I don’t recognize them, > we’re missing Kate1 or KRopos, and Denise or uvygirl at Vandenberg > AFB. I learned that Denise’s husband was involuntarily extended after > 9/11 (and they’d already bought a retirement home), so perhaps he has > finally been released and they’ve moved.

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@aol.com says… > And Mike from New Jersey who I always think about this time of year because > Lori was always so gentle with him. > M

I miss Mike, too. He was crass, frustrated, obnoxious, but I liked him. Alot. Something I related to about him, I guess, even though he pushed alot of people’s buttons. I miss Kitty so, so much. Does anyone know what happened to her? How she’s doing, if she’s doing at all? I miss Toni, though she just posted a few days ago. I miss Angela. And, remember LadyKristi? Rox? I hope she got the help she so desperately needed. — Di "May all your weeds be wildflowers." Anonymous dabell at optonline dot net www.pbase.com/di

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>I miss Toni, though she just posted a few days ago. I miss Angela. >And, remember LadyKristi? Rox? I hope she got the help she so >desperately needed.

I was reminiscing abotu the former members. remember Shelwood (Shelley). I think she started on enbrel. Rose

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I can pipe up here for Hildagh – she has her laptop back (repaired) now, but Peter is kind of hogging it somewhat. Also, her thumbs have been very sore lately (she actually e-mailed me to say it hurts to tripe, but I think she means type, lol!) , and she’s been hibernating like me! We haven’t seen much of Nikki since her father died, so don’t know about her, but I think of her often. Jayne

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The other person I always wonder about is the Angela that was in Seattle and had hep C. Haven’t heard from her for so long – with luck that means when the hep c got under control so did the arthritis. It did seem we lost some regular posters when the new biological drugs came out. That to me is wonderful. When I first joined things seemed so hopeless. Now we have choices which are geared directly for our disease – not for malaria, tb, cancer, etc. which accidently worked for some people. There are a couple of other people I think of regularly and those are the few we have lost although I like to think they are watching over us. Thanks everyone – you know even the noni guys and the fe man have given us some good laughs over the time. Kelly

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I miss Rox too and wonder how she is doing! Also miss Donna Freedman, > they are ok and hope that they are just out having fun somewhere. Would > Haven’t seen Socjog around in a few years!!! > Donna G

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And what about Natalee from Aus,. who was a member of this group because of her Mum. She did not have RA herself. She got married, and after that we didnt hear very much. Was she pregnant, or am I confusing her with someone else? It’s nice to see Toni back from time to time with updates. I remember Sandy too and widh she’d pop by just to let us know she is fine. Sandy that was the teacher. exercising to build up strength for some life changing surgery. I probably could think of a few more too if I had time. And isn’t it time we heard from Cush? Rose

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I miss Lady Kitt and Rox and hope they are both well and lurking, if not posting. Kelly C.;o)

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> exercising to build up strength for some life changing surgery.

That’s who I was trying to think of! Couldn’t remember enough to identify her. I hope she’s making progress and maybe getting some of those replacements done now. I still worry about Rox too. I hope things have improved for her. — Nann remove the Gator cheer to email me It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. – Aristotle

Response:

I miss Rox too and wonder how she is doing! Also miss Donna Freedman, they are ok and hope that they are just out having fun somewhere. Would Haven’t seen Socjog around in a few years!!! Donna G

Response:

And Mike from New Jersey who I always think about this time of year because Lori was always so gentle with him. M

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Kitty, the Queen >Dorothy Napier >Soc Jog >Marg >The Kens >That little guy Gary, who believed in CMO (which finally stopped working for >him last I heard) who was the cause of a thousand flame wars but who believed >n CMO with all of his heart >Norio >Hildagh >Nicki Roberts >Tiny little list but I miss and would love to hear from all of these people. >It’s funny how people are there and then not. I always hope that absense is >because they found the right drug and are in remission (probaly soc and Marg) >but often I think it might be because they are too ill to post (Kitty)

AND Nocki-Who I always think of at Christmas time because of that wonderful website she set up as a Christmas card to all of us, a few years ago. Lizzie-From Tasmania. (My niece and nephew always thought it was cool because I knew someone from Tasmania.) Char "Remember, I’m pulling for ya’. We’re all in this together." Red Green

Response:

I miss MomBom (lucy) who still e-mails me but who I miss posting Kitty, the Queen Dorothy Napier Soc Jog Marg The Kens That little guy Gary, who believed in CMO (which finally stopped working for him last I heard) who was the cause of a thousand flame wars but who believed in CMO with all of his heart Norio Hildagh Nicki Roberts Tiny little list but I miss and would love to hear from all of these people. It’s funny how people are there and then not. I always hope that absense is because they found the right drug and are in remission (probaly soc and Marg) but often I think it might be because they are too ill to post (Kitty) So gang, who do you miss and want to know how they are now? M

Response:

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Fire destroys couple's retirement home

Question:

Is that why you traded yours for hers?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->#1. A random Disney park gets lost in a fog of farting devils. Which one >will be chosen at a craps table in Reno three days before the event, so >nobody can follow the paper trail. > I was going to save up so I could go to Disney Land this Fall or next spring.. > but my fugding van costing over $3000.00 fudging dollars to repair this year > took care of that plan.. > — > A roomful of people vigorously exploring Sethian ideas-what fun! Add the > guidance and insight of Lynda and Stan–even better! > –Billie & Jerry Steiert, Kirkland, WA

Response:

Insurance Fraud. Heard ‘em talking about it at the local watering hole, right before they hired ’someone’ to toss the match in. They’d found out over a week ago it was a target on the latest CIA/HSA/FBI/GWB ‘Terrorist Simulation’ list. And took care of it themselves since they hadn’t purchased the ‘terrorist activity’ rider in the policy. Trouble is, they were third down on the list after some ‘terrorists’ blow up some apartments in Palm Springs and Philadelphia with their baking soda and vinegar ‘balloon bombs’ (LOTS OF THEM). #1. A random Disney park gets lost in a fog of farting devils. Which one will be chosen at a craps table in Reno three days before the event, so nobody can follow the paper trail.

Response:

Leave a Comment

TUBES FOR SALE – CHEAP!

Question:

I want to get rid of two large boxes of amp tubes that I bought off a retired engineer who was moving to a retirement home. I’d like them go to someone who can use ‘em instead of tossing them out. Please visit the web site I set up at the following address if you’re interested: http://www.geocities.com/vibrolux54/tubes.html I’m in the Washington DC area. Jeff — CROSSFIRE…Classic Rock ‘n Roll http://www.Crossfire.rocknrollband.com

Response:

Can I just buy the one or two tubes I can use? Spike – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >I want to get rid of two large boxes of amp tubes that I bought off a >retired engineer who was moving to a retirement home. I’d like them go >to someone who can use ‘em instead of tossing them out. >Please visit the web site I set up at the following address if you’re >interested: >http://www.geocities.com/vibrolux54/tubes.html >I’m in the Washington DC area. >Jeff >– >CROSSFIRE…Classic Rock ‘n Roll >http://www.Crossfire.rocknrollband.com

Response:

Maybe. My first preference is to try and sell the entire bunch to one or two people unless there’s a couple of high dollar pieces that justify selling them alone. I don’t want to get into packing and shipping 50 tubes at $5 ea. I’ll see how the offers come in. BTW…I’d also be interested in trades for items like good 6L6’s, 12AX7’s, speakers, effects, guitars, etc. Jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Can I just buy the one or two tubes I can use? > Spike >I want to get rid of two large boxes of amp tubes that I bought off a >retired engineer who was moving to a retirement home. I’d like them go >to someone who can use ‘em instead of tossing them out. >Please visit the web site I set up at the following address if you’re >interested: >http://www.geocities.com/vibrolux54/tubes.html >I’m in the Washington DC area. >Jeff >– >CROSSFIRE…Classic Rock ‘n Roll >http://www.Crossfire.rocknrollband.com

– CROSSFIRE…Classic Rock ‘n Roll http://www.Crossfire.rocknrollband.com

Response:

Yep, an old RCA serviceman gave me all his tubes about 15 years back. About 1500. As typical, they were the ones he pulled from people’s gear. All pretty much bunk.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I want to get rid of two large boxes of amp tubes that I bought off a > retired engineer who was moving to a retirement home. I’d like them go > to someone who can use ‘em instead of tossing them out. > Please visit the web site I set up at the following address if you’re > interested: > http://www.geocities.com/vibrolux54/tubes.html > I’m in the Washington DC area. > Jeff > — > CROSSFIRE…Classic Rock ‘n Roll > http://www.Crossfire.rocknrollband.com

Response:

Leave a Comment

making an offer

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >Sum: maybe Bob will "help" you, but it is really not a real estate >agent’s job to state an opinion of "market value", it is to bring >about the sale or purchase of property. >Most people do not use an appraiser to make an offer, but most people >do not agonize the way you do. That’s the only reason I suggested you >might be a candidate to retain an appraiser, if you want an arms’ >length value from someone who is licensed to give opinions of value, >plus who gets a flat fee whether you buy or not, so has no vested >interest in getting you to make an offer and close a deal. >Really, what matters is how much the particular house is worth to YOU.

Of course to be really safe, Sum should hire three appraisers and then average the values they come up with. Dimitri

Response:

Sum: maybe Bob will "help" you, but it is really not a real estate agent’s job to state an opinion of "market value", it is to bring about the sale or purchase of property. Most people do not use an appraiser to make an offer, but most people do not agonize the way you do. That’s the only reason I suggested you might be a candidate to retain an appraiser, if you want an arms’ length value from someone who is licensed to give opinions of value, plus who gets a flat fee whether you buy or not, so has no vested interest in getting you to make an offer and close a deal. Really, what matters is how much the particular house is worth to YOU. -v. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Hi Bob: >I am very close to Fort Lauderdale. In fact, the house I am considering is >located in Hollywood (in a neighborhood known as the Lakes of Emerald Hills). >If you have been following my various posts, I have been struggling to come up >with a fair market value of the property, as wells as some tricky issues like >HOA, major unpermitted work, as well as the seller being the seller agent. All >of those I am confident I can solve myself, except the market valuation part. I >will be using a lawyer to prepare my paper work. I do need advise from a real >estate professional to provide me with some market analysis information, but not >as a dual or buyer’s agent. I thought of using a real estate appraiser, and I >may still do this. The problem is many real estate agents who work and know the >Lakes area also live there, and the area seems to be monopolized by one real >estate company (Landmark). I was hoping to find someone from outside the area >who also knows the area’s sales trend. >Can you help me or can you recommend someone? >Thanks, >Sum > It’s great that you’re doing your "homework" and investigating as much as > you can before you make an offer. Your approach is not unlike that of an > appraiser in comparing the subject property (the one you’re considering > buying) to others in the neighborhood. The one caution I would add is the > arbitrary amount you ascribe to the differences in the properties. In your > example, you used $1,000 for granite counter tops. Although granite counter > tops is seldom a factor used by an appraiser, there *can* be a difference in > the cost of a modification/upgrade versus the value of that > modification/upgrade. But, again, you are approaching it from the value to > YOU and not necessarily the market value of the house. > But I think it’s necessary to add a word or two about the South Florida > housing market in general. I realize that you’re in South Florida > (somewhere) and I am speaking from my perspective of the Fort Lauderdale > area which I can tell you is extremely volatile. The fact is that we are > quickly running out of room to build any new houses but that hasn’t stopped > the migration of the retiring baby-boomers to Florida looking for their > retirement homes. This demand on the housing market from the buyers’ side > has kept the prices up since the supply of inventory is coming to a peak. I > have seen properties sell before they even get into the "system" and usually > go for full asking price or just a bit less. Even the events of September 11 > only had a mild and temporary impact on the South Florida real estate > market. Of course, there are areas that are less desirable where properties > will sit on the market for months and not move. These are generally > depressed properties that are most often snapped up by investors who will > end up renting for a few years and then sell to pull out any profit. But I > don’t think you’ve been looking in an area like that. > If you have been lucky enough to have your eye on a house that hasn’t had > any activity in the way of other buyers bidding on it and you have the time > to do your homework, you should, by all means, do whatever research that > will make you feel comfortable once you do make your offer and add all the > contingencies that you feel are necessary. You can even add one that will > allow you to terminate the contract if it doesn’t appraise for a given > amount to ensure that you are getting the value that you’re looking for. But > rest assured, based on what’s happening in the South Florida market, your > investment should be a good one and there will be very little likelihood > that you will lose money in the long run. But I would also caution you to > not try to do this alone. You should really have the help of a real estate > professional who knows the market and can advise you on how to best approach > the transaction. An attorney can also review the paperwork and make sure all > your ducks are in a row, but can’t really offer advise from a market > perspective. > > I still think there is a way to determine what is fair market value for > me, and me > > alone. On one hand the property has to be something I want, but on the > other hand, I > > need to have a pretty good idea if I were to turn around and sell the > property next > > week, I will be able to do it without a significant loss. This method may > only work for > > me and no one else. I simply want to state it here for reader’s > amusement. > > The way I figured a house I am about to make an offer is, I gathered the > house prices > > nearby which changed hands in the last six months, and list this house’s > feature with > > theirs side by side. I compare each of those features and determine how > much of that is > > worth to me. If house A has a granite counter top in the kitchen and my > future house > > has laminate and my wife thinks this is important, I will subract say > $1000 from house > > A’s sale price. However if house B is on a corner lot and my future home > is not, and I > > am indifferent about this, I do nothing. This way I will work with 3-4 > houses and > > hopefully I will get a price from each house when they are brought up or > down to the > > level of my future home. Then based on the distance from my future home I > > proportionally weight each price and come up with a weighted average, the > closer the > > home to my furture home, the higher the weight. I considered this price > the "median" > > price. The only thing about this, is that I do not get to tour these > houses that are > > already sold, so I need to get information based on some computer data > sheets which > > tends to describe the good side and hide the bad side. For example, I > would not know if > > one pool is significantly better and bigger than the other. I would > notice all the > > defects of my future home, but not of that for these other houses. > > I then do the same with the houses currently on the market in it’s > neighborhood. I go > > through the same procedure, and get a weighted average price again. I > consider this > > price the "high" price since it is based on listing prices and the actual > sale price > > should be lower. > > The difference between the median price and the high price is the margin. > I take the > > median price, subtract the margin, and I get to the "low" price. I plan > to start my > > offer at 5% lower than the low price. I think this will not insult the > seller. > > I am a newbie, and I do not have much experience. I read a couple of > books from Barnes > > and Nobles, and learned a great deal from experts on this forum. I have > an idea how > > appraisers get their prices, and I modified their methods a little bit to > come up with > > mine, and I think my way of getting the low and high price envelope is > reasonable. > > Of course, this may end up not as good as a simple "gut feeling". But for > me this is a > > way so that both me and my wife can participate equally in "how much do we > want this > > house" and a way to quantify the basis of our first offer. > > My 0.01 cent. > > Sum > > > >> is it market priced? below market? recently in the CA bay area there > was a > > > >> house which had ~ market value of ~$385K was listed at $369K to "sell > > > >fast" > > > >> and I offered $345K after it didn’t sell in 5 weeks….<snip> we > settled at $350K > > > Then how do you figure that market value was $385? On what do you > > > base that? Market value can change from month to month, week to week, > > > even day to day (think of 9/11). > > > It looks more like someone THOUGHT the market value was $385 based on > > > what it was at some point in time, but by the time you came along it > > > had gone down….. > > > -v.

Response:

> whats the lowest price i can offer to a house listed for $289K in Long > Island, NY? > im thinking of offerring $250K.

Go ahead an make the offer, the seller was thinking the same thing: How much can I ask for a house in Long Island, NY? Find out what they equivalent houses are selling for in that area and then go lower, they will always let you know if you want to pay what they will take, but if you High Ball them and offer what they want then they will not tell you that they would taken less??? Just like you would not tell them that you would have gladly paid $325,000 for the same house and they only want $289,000.

Response:

the home is priced reasonably for $289..but it’s next to an expressway. did you use a buyers agent?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> is it market priced? below market? recently in the CA bay area there was a > house which had ~ market value of ~$385K was listed at $369K to "sell fast" > and I offered $345K after it didn’t sell in 5 weeks (though this time of > year often it is hard to sell fast) not wanting to completely low ball since > i liked the house, they countered $355K and we settled at $350K > I think if the home is price reasonablly you will not get a response > offering $250 on a $289 home > whats the lowest price i can offer to a house listed for $289K in Long > Island, NY? > im thinking of offerring $250K.

Response:

Hi Bob: I am very close to Fort Lauderdale. In fact, the house I am considering is located in Hollywood (in a neighborhood known as the Lakes of Emerald Hills). If you have been following my various posts, I have been struggling to come up with a fair market value of the property, as wells as some tricky issues like HOA, major unpermitted work, as well as the seller being the seller agent. All of those I am confident I can solve myself, except the market valuation part. I will be using a lawyer to prepare my paper work. I do need advise from a real estate professional to provide me with some market analysis information, but not as a dual or buyer’s agent. I thought of using a real estate appraiser, and I may still do this. The problem is many real estate agents who work and know the Lakes area also live there, and the area seems to be monopolized by one real estate company (Landmark). I was hoping to find someone from outside the area who also knows the area’s sales trend. Can you help me or can you recommend someone? Thanks, Sum – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > It’s great that you’re doing your "homework" and investigating as much as > you can before you make an offer. Your approach is not unlike that of an > appraiser in comparing the subject property (the one you’re considering > buying) to others in the neighborhood. The one caution I would add is the > arbitrary amount you ascribe to the differences in the properties. In your > example, you used $1,000 for granite counter tops. Although granite counter > tops is seldom a factor used by an appraiser, there *can* be a difference in > the cost of a modification/upgrade versus the value of that > modification/upgrade. But, again, you are approaching it from the value to > YOU and not necessarily the market value of the house. > But I think it’s necessary to add a word or two about the South Florida > housing market in general. I realize that you’re in South Florida > (somewhere) and I am speaking from my perspective of the Fort Lauderdale > area which I can tell you is extremely volatile. The fact is that we are > quickly running out of room to build any new houses but that hasn’t stopped > the migration of the retiring baby-boomers to Florida looking for their > retirement homes. This demand on the housing market from the buyers’ side > has kept the prices up since the supply of inventory is coming to a peak. I > have seen properties sell before they even get into the "system" and usually > go for full asking price or just a bit less. Even the events of September 11 > only had a mild and temporary impact on the South Florida real estate > market. Of course, there are areas that are less desirable where properties > will sit on the market for months and not move. These are generally > depressed properties that are most often snapped up by investors who will > end up renting for a few years and then sell to pull out any profit. But I > don’t think you’ve been looking in an area like that. > If you have been lucky enough to have your eye on a house that hasn’t had > any activity in the way of other buyers bidding on it and you have the time > to do your homework, you should, by all means, do whatever research that > will make you feel comfortable once you do make your offer and add all the > contingencies that you feel are necessary. You can even add one that will > allow you to terminate the contract if it doesn’t appraise for a given > amount to ensure that you are getting the value that you’re looking for. But > rest assured, based on what’s happening in the South Florida market, your > investment should be a good one and there will be very little likelihood > that you will lose money in the long run. But I would also caution you to > not try to do this alone. You should really have the help of a real estate > professional who knows the market and can advise you on how to best approach > the transaction. An attorney can also review the paperwork and make sure all > your ducks are in a row, but can’t really offer advise from a market > perspective. > I still think there is a way to determine what is fair market value for > me, and me > alone. On one hand the property has to be something I want, but on the > other hand, I > need to have a pretty good idea if I were to turn around and sell the > property next > week, I will be able to do it without a significant loss. This method may > only work for > me and no one else. I simply want to state it here for reader’s > amusement. > The way I figured a house I am about to make an offer is, I gathered the > house prices > nearby which changed hands in the last six months, and list this house’s > feature with > theirs side by side. I compare each of those features and determine how > much of that is > worth to me. If house A has a granite counter top in the kitchen and my > future house > has laminate and my wife thinks this is important, I will subract say > $1000 from house > A’s sale price. However if house B is on a corner lot and my future home > is not, and I > am indifferent about this, I do nothing. This way I will work with 3-4 > houses and > hopefully I will get a price from each house when they are brought up or > down to the > level of my future home. Then based on the distance from my future home I > proportionally weight each price and come up with a weighted average, the > closer the > home to my furture home, the higher the weight. I considered this price > the "median" > price. The only thing about this, is that I do not get to tour these > houses that are > already sold, so I need to get information based on some computer data > sheets which > tends to describe the good side and hide the bad side. For example, I > would not know if > one pool is significantly better and bigger than the other. I would > notice all the > defects of my future home, but not of that for these other houses. > I then do the same with the houses currently on the market in it’s > neighborhood. I go > through the same procedure, and get a weighted average price again. I > consider this > price the "high" price since it is based on listing prices and the actual > sale price > should be lower. > The difference between the median price and the high price is the margin. > I take the > median price, subtract the margin, and I get to the "low" price. I plan > to start my > offer at 5% lower than the low price. I think this will not insult the > seller. > I am a newbie, and I do not have much experience. I read a couple of > books from Barnes > and Nobles, and learned a great deal from experts on this forum. I have > an idea how > appraisers get their prices, and I modified their methods a little bit to > come up with > mine, and I think my way of getting the low and high price envelope is > reasonable. > Of course, this may end up not as good as a simple "gut feeling". But for > me this is a > way so that both me and my wife can participate equally in "how much do we > want this > house" and a way to quantify the basis of our first offer. > My 0.01 cent. > Sum > > >> is it market priced? below market? recently in the CA bay area there > was a > > >> house which had ~ market value of ~$385K was listed at $369K to "sell > > >fast" > > >> and I offered $345K after it didn’t sell in 5 weeks….<snip> we > settled at $350K > > Then how do you figure that market value was $385? On what do you > > base that? Market value can change from month to month, week to week, > > even day to day (think of 9/11). > > It looks more like someone THOUGHT the market value was $385 based on > > what it was at some point in time, but by the time you came along it > > had gone down….. > > -v.

Response:

i did not use an agent since my area is still so hot that homes usually go for list so i saw no point in using an agent other than helping you find a home, still when negociating i prefer to give a low but not too low offer and state that i am serious

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> the home is priced reasonably for $289..but it’s next to an expressway. > did you use a buyers agent? > is it market priced? below market? recently in the CA bay area there was a > house which had ~ market value of ~$385K was listed at $369K to "sell > fast" > and I offered $345K after it didn’t sell in 5 weeks (though this time of > year often it is hard to sell fast) not wanting to completely low ball > since > i liked the house, they countered $355K and we settled at $350K > I think if the home is price reasonablly you will not get a response > offering $250 on a $289 home > > whats the lowest price i can offer to a house listed for $289K in Long > > Island, NY? > > im thinking of offerring $250K.

Response:

It’s great that you’re doing your "homework" and investigating as much as you can before you make an offer. Your approach is not unlike that of an appraiser in comparing the subject property (the one you’re considering buying) to others in the neighborhood. The one caution I would add is the arbitrary amount you ascribe to the differences in the properties. In your example, you used $1,000 for granite counter tops. Although granite counter tops is seldom a factor used by an appraiser, there *can* be a difference in the cost of a modification/upgrade versus the value of that modification/upgrade. But, again, you are approaching it from the value to YOU and not necessarily the market value of the house. But I think it’s necessary to add a word or two about the South Florida housing market in general. I realize that you’re in South Florida (somewhere) and I am speaking from my perspective of the Fort Lauderdale area which I can tell you is extremely volatile. The fact is that we are quickly running out of room to build any new houses but that hasn’t stopped the migration of the retiring baby-boomers to Florida looking for their retirement homes. This demand on the housing market from the buyers’ side has kept the prices up since the supply of inventory is coming to a peak. I have seen properties sell before they even get into the "system" and usually go for full asking price or just a bit less. Even the events of September 11 only had a mild and temporary impact on the South Florida real estate market. Of course, there are areas that are less desirable where properties will sit on the market for months and not move. These are generally depressed properties that are most often snapped up by investors who will end up renting for a few years and then sell to pull out any profit. But I don’t think you’ve been looking in an area like that. If you have been lucky enough to have your eye on a house that hasn’t had any activity in the way of other buyers bidding on it and you have the time to do your homework, you should, by all means, do whatever research that will make you feel comfortable once you do make your offer and add all the contingencies that you feel are necessary. You can even add one that will allow you to terminate the contract if it doesn’t appraise for a given amount to ensure that you are getting the value that you’re looking for. But rest assured, based on what’s happening in the South Florida market, your investment should be a good one and there will be very little likelihood that you will lose money in the long run. But I would also caution you to not try to do this alone. You should really have the help of a real estate professional who knows the market and can advise you on how to best approach the transaction. An attorney can also review the paperwork and make sure all your ducks are in a row, but can’t really offer advise from a market perspective.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I still think there is a way to determine what is fair market value for me, and me > alone. On one hand the property has to be something I want, but on the other hand, I > need to have a pretty good idea if I were to turn around and sell the property next > week, I will be able to do it without a significant loss. This method may only work for > me and no one else. I simply want to state it here for reader’s amusement. > The way I figured a house I am about to make an offer is, I gathered the house prices > nearby which changed hands in the last six months, and list this house’s feature with > theirs side by side. I compare each of those features and determine how much of that is > worth to me. If house A has a granite counter top in the kitchen and my future house > has laminate and my wife thinks this is important, I will subract say $1000 from house > A’s sale price. However if house B is on a corner lot and my future home is not, and I > am indifferent about this, I do nothing. This way I will work with 3-4 houses and > hopefully I will get a price from each house when they are brought up or down to the > level of my future home. Then based on the distance from my future home I > proportionally weight each price and come up with a weighted average, the closer the > home to my furture home, the higher the weight. I considered this price the "median" > price. The only thing about this, is that I do not get to tour these houses that are > already sold, so I need to get information based on some computer data sheets which > tends to describe the good side and hide the bad side. For example, I would not know if > one pool is significantly better and bigger than the other. I would notice all the > defects of my future home, but not of that for these other houses. > I then do the same with the houses currently on the market in it’s neighborhood. I go > through the same procedure, and get a weighted average price again. I consider this > price the "high" price since it is based on listing prices and the actual sale price > should be lower. > The difference between the median price and the high price is the margin. I take the > median price, subtract the margin, and I get to the "low" price. I plan to start my > offer at 5% lower than the low price. I think this will not insult the seller. > I am a newbie, and I do not have much experience. I read a couple of books from Barnes > and Nobles, and learned a great deal from experts on this forum. I have an idea how > appraisers get their prices, and I modified their methods a little bit to come up with > mine, and I think my way of getting the low and high price envelope is reasonable. > Of course, this may end up not as good as a simple "gut feeling". But for me this is a > way so that both me and my wife can participate equally in "how much do we want this > house" and a way to quantify the basis of our first offer. > My 0.01 cent. > Sum > >> is it market priced? below market? recently in the CA bay area there was a > >> house which had ~ market value of ~$385K was listed at $369K to "sell > >fast" > >> and I offered $345K after it didn’t sell in 5 weeks….<snip> we settled at $350K > Then how do you figure that market value was $385? On what do you > base that? Market value can change from month to month, week to week, > even day to day (think of 9/11). > It looks more like someone THOUGHT the market value was $385 based on > what it was at some point in time, but by the time you came along it > had gone down….. > -v.

Response:

>> is it market priced? below market? recently in the CA bay area there was a > house which had ~ market value of ~$385K was listed at $369K to "sell >fast" > and I offered $345K after it didn’t sell in 5 weeks….<snip> we settled at $350K

Then how do you figure that market value was $385? On what do you base that? Market value can change from month to month, week to week, even day to day (think of 9/11). It looks more like someone THOUGHT the market value was $385 based on what it was at some point in time, but by the time you came along it had gone down….. -v.

Response:

>… i prefer to <other conditions snipped> state that i am serious…

what good does that do, unless other buyers are stating with their offers that they are not serious? does anyway state that? IMO, what really says you’re serious is the tender of significant earnest money. When someone offers, say, only $500 to go with their $300,000 offer, I don’t think they’re serious no matter what words come out of their mouth. -v.

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I still think there is a way to determine what is fair market value for me, and me alone. On one hand the property has to be something I want, but on the other hand, I need to have a pretty good idea if I were to turn around and sell the property next week, I will be able to do it without a significant loss. This method may only work for me and no one else. I simply want to state it here for reader’s amusement. The way I figured a house I am about to make an offer is, I gathered the house prices nearby which changed hands in the last six months, and list this house’s feature with theirs side by side. I compare each of those features and determine how much of that is worth to me. If house A has a granite counter top in the kitchen and my future house has laminate and my wife thinks this is important, I will subract say $1000 from house A’s sale price. However if house B is on a corner lot and my future home is not, and I am indifferent about this, I do nothing. This way I will work with 3-4 houses and hopefully I will get a price from each house when they are brought up or down to the level of my future home. Then based on the distance from my future home I proportionally weight each price and come up with a weighted average, the closer the home to my furture home, the higher the weight. I considered this price the "median" price. The only thing about this, is that I do not get to tour these houses that are already sold, so I need to get information based on some computer data sheets which tends to describe the good side and hide the bad side. For example, I would not know if one pool is significantly better and bigger than the other. I would notice all the defects of my future home, but not of that for these other houses. I then do the same with the houses currently on the market in it’s neighborhood. I go through the same procedure, and get a weighted average price again. I consider this price the "high" price since it is based on listing prices and the actual sale price should be lower. The difference between the median price and the high price is the margin. I take the median price, subtract the margin, and I get to the "low" price. I plan to start my offer at 5% lower than the low price. I think this will not insult the seller. I am a newbie, and I do not have much experience. I read a couple of books from Barnes and Nobles, and learned a great deal from experts on this forum. I have an idea how appraisers get their prices, and I modified their methods a little bit to come up with mine, and I think my way of getting the low and high price envelope is reasonable. Of course, this may end up not as good as a simple "gut feeling". But for me this is a way so that both me and my wife can participate equally in "how much do we want this house" and a way to quantify the basis of our first offer. My 0.01 cent. Sum – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> is it market priced? below market? recently in the CA bay area there was a >> house which had ~ market value of ~$385K was listed at $369K to "sell >fast" >> and I offered $345K after it didn’t sell in 5 weeks….<snip> we settled at $350K > Then how do you figure that market value was $385? On what do you > base that? Market value can change from month to month, week to week, > even day to day (think of 9/11). > It looks more like someone THOUGHT the market value was $385 based on > what it was at some point in time, but by the time you came along it > had gone down….. > -v.

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whats the lowest price i can offer to a house listed for $289K in Long Island, NY? im thinking of offerring $250K.

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You can offer 10 bucks…. Its not how much you offer The only thing that counts is what the seller is willing to sell for… I see nothing wrong however in offering 250K the seller will either reject it.. or the seller will come back with another say 280K and this keeps going until one of you refuse to play the game..or you come to a price acceptable to both of you… Bob Griffiths – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > whats the lowest price i can offer to a house listed for $289K in Long > Island, NY? > im thinking of offerring $250K.

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is it market priced? below market? recently in the CA bay area there was a house which had ~ market value of ~$385K was listed at $369K to "sell fast" and I offered $345K after it didn’t sell in 5 weeks (though this time of year often it is hard to sell fast) not wanting to completely low ball since i liked the house, they countered $355K and we settled at $350K I think if the home is price reasonablly you will not get a response offering $250 on a $289 home

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> whats the lowest price i can offer to a house listed for $289K in Long > Island, NY? > im thinking of offerring $250K.

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> whats the lowest price i can offer to a house listed for $289K in Long > Island, NY? > im thinking of offerring $250K.

You can offer $1.00, if you want. The price you should offer is another matter entirely. I’d also offer it to the owner, instead of the house. The house isn’t very likely to respond. :-) Is the house fairly priced? How is the market in that neighborhood? The last time I looked, Long Island is more than a block long. $289K for the house in one area may be overpriced, and underpriced in another. – Rich

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>whats the lowest price i can offer to a house listed for $289K in Long >Island, NY?

Well, let’s see, you CAN offer ZERO. Or even negative (they pay you to take it). But what would the point be? I already pretty much said elsewhere that IMO you are an a-hole. You are the one who said you just intended to go around making low offers until you got one accepted. So go for it and YOU tell US. For those with more realistic intent than you, don’t make the mistake of implicitly assuming that the house is listed at the "correct" price. A person is better off paying full list for a house priced at $275, than they are getting $20 off on the same house priced at $300. It would serve you right to actually get your offer of $250 accepted, if the house were actually way overpriced to begin with, and was really only $240….. So better offer even lower! (BTW, what have similar houses in the neighborhood been selling for? Do you even have any idea?) ha! -v.

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