Retirement Party

Possible 990 Suicide Motive?

Question:

> The NTSB is not in the railroad business,

Actually, they are…. Aviation, Highway, Marine, Pipeline and Railroads…. > The Egyptians are not used to a free society and a free press — if they > were in charge the whole thing would be hushed up rather than embarrass > the state airlines —

I am not Egyptian so I cannot comment of freedom of speech etc issues in Egypt. But CNN has reported some of the stories coming out of Egypt’s press and interviewed some Egyptians, and I don’t get the idea that they are restricted. If there is any speculation , it seems to be coming from there. Speculation about missiles etc were shown. And the one which caught my attention: one guy mentioning that all 3 accidents (TWA, SR and this one) took off from same runway. Yes, some guy in Egypt, interviewed by CNN said that. Bill Mulcahy would be proud I think that the second you leave the purely scientific mechanical investigations and move towards character/psychological examinations of the crew whose cultural background is very different from that of the USA, it is only normal to expect Egypt to request a greater involvement.

Response:

If it were my profession to investigate air disasters, I would agree with you completely. Since it’s not, but merely an interest, I see no harm in discussing the possibilities. Frankly, I see harm in telling people not to do just that. Yes, there is the possibility that this pilot was not at fault and in discussing his alleged suicide we are showing disrespect to the dead. However, the accident investigators (who have apparently leaked parts of the CVR transcripts to the press despite objections by the Egyptian government) have already done that. Let’s face it, this forum doesn’t mean diddly squat. To say that exercising free speech in this forum somehow interferes with "letting the investigation continue" overstates the importance of this forum to an almost comical degree. Personally, I felt the suicide motive questions were legitimate. For example, there was an Air Force officer facing court martial who killed herself just before the verdict was read in order to ensure her military benefits transferred to her children. Had she lived and been convicted, they would have lost all benefits. There could be a parallel here if this pilot’s retirement benefits were somehow in question, although one would wonder why taking 216 other people along for the ride was necessary. That alone leads me to discount the suicide motive. Even disgruntled suicidal employees don’t tend to take down innocent bystanders, they target specific people. This whole suicide thing just doesn’t wash. If you still believe there was a struggle for control, and you rule out suicide, then you have a criminal act. Basically, you have a terrorist act. You must remember that HAMAS is active in Egypt. Egypt still holds Abu Nidal. Egypt is a participant in the currently ongoing Middle East peace talks. There are many reasons to suspect a terrorist act. There, was that so horrible to digest? A little free speech my friends? — Ron Katona – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > says… > Anything is possible. Speculation serves no one any purpose. We may never > know what caused this tragedy, but let’s at least let the investigation > continue until the authorities decide they either can make a definitive > determination or not. > Bravo!! Well said, ’nuff said! > — > Karl

Response:

>Let’s face it, this forum doesn’t mean diddly squat. To say that >exercising free speech in this forum somehow interferes with "letting >the investigation continue" overstates the importance of this forum to >an almost comical degree.

D’ya think? I dunno, I can see the NTSB glued to their screens to see what we come up with next. If nothing else, they good a view at some scenatios they probably hadn’t considered. (God, I’m a nasty person, aren’t I) — Bertie the Bunyip AAS 001 AAS founder

Response:

What a bunch of crap. Obviously the Chairman of the NTSB knew what was on the tape at the time that he made his original statement, but in Washington DC, diplomacy is a big issue.  A senior Government official doesn’t just jump up on the podium and accuse a citizen of a friendly foreign country of murdering 50? Americans – EVEN IF HE HAS A PRETTY GOOD IDEA THAT IS WHAT HAPPENED. You can bet that every statement that Jim Hall made was carefully coordinated with the State Department so as not to upset delicate international relations by giving the appearance that he was making a hasty conclusion.  Even so, despite Chairman Hall’s good efforts, the Egyptians are still accusing the NTSB of making a hasty conclusion.  If anyone has a right to be pissed off about hasty conclusions its Boeing.  Some contributors to this newsgroup practically had the trial and execution over the thrust reverser before there was any evidence at all. Fact of life – senior Government officials have to satisfy many people.  It would have been far worse of Hall had stood up five minutes after first hearing the CVR and started accusing Egypt of murder.  THAT would have been a diplomatic nightmare. Ron (but not Ron Hepler)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Isn’t it also interesting to note that the NTSB did a 180 on the suicide >issue. >First they said that there was no evidence of a suicide on the tape. >They initially reported that the Captain & FO worked together to try to >solve the problem. >Now we have a Whole New Script. >No wonder the Egyptians are suspicious and sending their own team to >participate, to insure that they don’t get Railroaded. >Ron H.

Response:

In article > Isn’t it also interesting to note that the NTSB did a 180 on the suicide > issue. > First they said that there was no evidence of a suicide on the tape. > They initially reported that the Captain & FO worked together to try to > solve the problem. > Now we have a Whole New Script. > No wonder the Egyptians are suspicious and sending their own team to > participate, to insure that they don’t get Railroaded. > Ron H.

It is obvious that the NTSB is committed to truth — look at TWA800   Everyone thought it was a bomb or terrorist attack of some sort but they kept plugging away until they had a fair assessment that led to the conclusion that it was mechanical.  The NTSB is not in the railroad business, but that is difficult for societies that are not committed to openness to understand. The Egyptians are not used to a free society and a free press — if they were in charge the whole thing would be hushed up rather than embarrass the state airlines — – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I understand that the crew member that said the prayer before the plane >crashed was about to retire. Also his daughter had an illness which > required >him to fly her to the United States frequently for treatment. Could it be >that he would not have been able to do this after retirement and crashed > the >plane so that his family could get the insurance money to continue medical >care for their daughter. i.e. He did it for the love of his daughter? >-Would his income have been reduced after retirement? >-Would he be able to use any existing airline privileges after retirement? >-Was he able to fly his daughter to the U.S. for free before retirement? >-How was her treatment paid for?

Response:

Isn’t it also interesting to note that the NTSB did a 180 on the suicide issue. First they said that there was no evidence of a suicide on the tape. They initially reported that the Captain & FO worked together to try to solve the problem. Now we have a Whole New Script. No wonder the Egyptians are suspicious and sending their own team to participate, to insure that they don’t get Railroaded. Ron H. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >I understand that the crew member that said the prayer before the plane >crashed was about to retire. Also his daughter had an illness which required >him to fly her to the United States frequently for treatment. Could it be >that he would not have been able to do this after retirement and crashed the >plane so that his family could get the insurance money to continue medical >care for their daughter. i.e. He did it for the love of his daughter? >-Would his income have been reduced after retirement? >-Would he be able to use any existing airline privileges after retirement? >-Was he able to fly his daughter to the U.S. for free before retirement? >-How was her treatment paid for?

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >X-No-Archive: Yes >Speculation serves no one any purpose. >I would like to respectfully disagree with this point.  I think speculation >can serve a very important purpose: brainstorming.  That is, if we put any >theories on the table, no matter how implausible, we may finally stumble on >something that we would otherwise never have thought of.  Of course, the >investigators have to test those theories, to see whether the evidence is >consistent with them.  But part of the scientific method *is* forming a >working hypothesis, and speculation can assist with this step.

A reasoned answer, Chris, except I doubt that any of the NTSB investigators draw upon the aviation newsgroups as sources of scientific inspiration. And with rare exception, they don’t need to read the newspapers to tell them where they ought to be looking for clues. Newsgroup chatter, like virtue, is its own reward.

Response:

says… > Anything is possible. Speculation serves no one any purpose. We may never > know what caused this tragedy, but let’s at least let the investigation > continue until the authorities decide they either can make a definitive > determination or not.

Bravo!! Well said, ’nuff said! — Karl

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> X-No-Archive: Yes >Speculation serves no one any purpose. > I would like to respectfully disagree with this point.  I think speculation > can serve a very important purpose: brainstorming.  That is, if we put any > theories on the table, no matter how implausible, we may finally stumble on > something that we would otherwise never have thought of.  Of course, the > investigators have to test those theories, to see whether the evidence is > consistent with them.  But part of the scientific method *is* forming a > working hypothesis, and speculation can assist with this step.

I agree! It is more scientific to keep an open mind…

Response:

>I understand that the crew member that said the prayer before the plane >crashed was about to retire. Also his daughter had an illness which required >him to fly her to the United States frequently for treatment. Could it be >that he would not have been able to do this after retirement and crashed the >plane so that his family could get the insurance money to continue medical >care for their daughter. i.e. He did it for the love of his daughter? >-Would his income have been reduced after retirement? >-Would he be able to use any existing airline privileges after retirement? >-Was he able to fly his daughter to the U.S. for free before retirement? >-How was her treatment paid for?

Anything is possible. Speculation serves no one any purpose. We may never know what caused this tragedy, but let’s at least let the investigation continue until the authorities decide they either can make a definitive determination or not.

Response:

I understand that the crew member that said the prayer before the plane crashed was about to retire. Also his daughter had an illness which required him to fly her to the United States frequently for treatment. Could it be that he would not have been able to do this after retirement and crashed the plane so that his family could get the insurance money to continue medical care for their daughter. i.e. He did it for the love of his daughter? -Would his income have been reduced after retirement? -Would he be able to use any existing airline privileges after retirement? -Was he able to fly his daughter to the U.S. for free before retirement? -How was her treatment paid for?

Response:

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